Volvo engines (For Crazyhorse) - Page 10

Jonny Fuller · 09 March 2003, 15:41

CH my dear friend, please don't take this the wrong way as I'm not spoilling for a fight or trying to insult you but, could you give us an idea of your actual experience within the field of fast-ish planing hulls/boats, I don't mean by that, anything you may have read about, or heard of, or been told, I mean wot you've actualy done!, beit using of, puting together yourself, building, (looking at pictures dosn't count)

crazyhorse · 09 March 2003, 16:03

None but I do know people who have the experience and I listen and get proffesional advice if I think it is needed,

I have built my own yacht from purchasing a bare steel hull and fitted her out .

But I am no boat builder or designer and do not purport to be one,I leave that to the experts.

But I have my views based on those that I think do know what they are talking about and in my oppinion have real experiance of what works and doesnt work in a rib and I gree its not always the proffesional but usually they have used them for important jobs at some time.

There are a number of things that you have said that I disagree with,for egsample you have not checked out anything with regardes to what this boat is designd for,and have simply said yes good idea,You have said that SS tanks are crap when they are plainly not as people use them.

We have differnt ideas and come to our own conclusions,I believe you are respected in boat racing circles but that doesnt mean you know all about putting a Kad 300 In a Humber 8.5 1.5 mtrs from the stern .You are not the diffinitive and neither am I or otherwise we would all be using your boats/ribs.

Dont take this the wrong way as I feel you have a lot to offer on racing hulls and performance but before you say yes that a good idea dont you think we need a little more imformation to come to that conclusion?

Jonny Fuller · 09 March 2003, 16:29

CH,
Thank you for your honesty!
The word "Racing" is only a word, the goal of it is to go as quickly as poss between two places, these being the start and finish,
the best way to do that is to put a boat together that will do this as safely and comfortably as you can, this means a ballance AND hull type that will give the best poss stability in pitch AND roll, with as little jarring and high "G" loadings as you can.
So, whilst you and JW aren't trying to "race" the same basic requirements/rules apply.
this is of course asuming you want to travel at a reasonable speed, I have to geuss you do, or you would get a displacement craft and everything would be much easier, so we are not so far apart in our goals as you may think!

crazyhorse · 09 March 2003, 16:35

I agree with your sentiments exactly, but I am sure you would also agree that to use an existing design of rib and put a Kad300 in her, where you think it should go? is not the way forward to achieve your goal of well ballanced boat/rib without real specilist advice or a proffesional eye?

Jonny Fuller · 09 March 2003, 16:48

I don't know the boat in question, what is the most common engine(s) this boat is fitted with?

crazyhorse · 09 March 2003, 17:01

Its is used as a offshore rib and has either Outboards or diesel single and is respected as a good sea boat as is,I know of none with a forward mounted engine.and none with a Kad 300 in Yet as the engine has only been out for over a yr.She goes well with a dieasel so Im told, but the way some manufacturers could get round the warrantie and stability problems for RCD in my oppinion is bye selling recreational craft as work boats. Im am also of the personal oppinion that it is not good practise to get a none Ce maked hull only from a re sale point of view if you want to sell at a later date to a recreational user.

Any changes you make from the norm may mean re evaluation when sold to comply with RCD for cat B at owners risk and builders may have no warrantie issues if you fit your own engine.Thats the way as I see it. Unless somebody can convince me different?

Dirk Diggler · 09 March 2003, 17:08

Am I correct in thinking that a self build doesn't have to conform to CE regs, but it can't be placed on the market for a minimum of 7 years ( maybe 5) after completion.

And is it not feasible that a "self build" could be a hull & deck, and in the case of a rib, tubes, that you finish off yourself.

Jonny Fuller · 09 March 2003, 17:13

So what is the diesel engine this particular model is normaly fitted with, ie how many cyl's?

crazyhorse · 09 March 2003, 17:15

This in my oppinion is a self build project in the eyes of RCD and maybe the MCA so any changes will be looked at in depth for its use when requiring conformaty to either or if sold on the recreational market as a offshore boat within 5 yrs or when applying for MCA work boat code.IMHO

crazyhorse · 09 March 2003, 17:16

Dont know ,What do you think? see http://www.r-i-b.co.uk/offshore_tech.html or is JW better leaving it where it is as it seem to work well as is.

Jonny Fuller · 09 March 2003, 18:15

I don't know either, the web site doesn't give much away re motors, but if for example they usualy fit a kad32, fitting the 300 would move the C of G aft quite a bit, in that case moving the motor fwd a bit, maybe not as much as 1.5m, but a bit, would get the C of G bach where it should be, clearly you can't make it any lighter, but it would be far better to maintain the right ballance.
imagine how the single O/B's CofG compares with the kad300's, miles apart! they probably just "get away" with most of these details with the average boat being "less than ideal".

On a serious note, I do think you have too much faith in "alleged" experts, this may be born out of your newness to fast boating, but to think only a few tallented and qualified individuals hold all the secrets to making a boat work is i'm afraid naive.
There are highly respected designers, in this country and others, who will design you a race boat, on testing it's not unusual to find the boat unsafe or uncompetetive, the same designer will then charge you again for work on trying to get the thing to work!
I've seen this go on for months with some boats, even years, and not always geting there in the end either. and I'm talking "well known, respected" designers! On the other hand, many of the most successfull boats that have ever raced have thier roots "on the back of a fag packet" from the man with the "feel for it"

you know what mathematicians or accountant's are like, if the trusted formula tells them 10 +10 is 31, they'll believe it!

Jonny Fuller · 09 March 2003, 18:34

CH,
How about some pics of your yacht?

crazyhorse · 09 March 2003, 18:36

Most boat builders work round the basic Hull mold in the hope it will be all things to all men,As to produce a Hull mould for each engine weight and configuration would put you out of buisness pretty quick.

I do not have faith in all purported proffesionals/designers as the way I see it most get it wrong,some more than others.There are very few succsesfull designs commercially,and given the number of boat designers they must produce more than one each yr therfore a lot must go bye the wayside.

I am aware of the difficulties in producing a good boat with optimised performance and feel you have to put everything in your favour,to have a chance of getting it right,This means talking and listening to all views weather it be a user,a teacher,designer,engine man, marine consultant,Naval architects, Surveyor ,experienced user. Hero and non hero and sticking it all into a pot and seeing what comes out.

I have to say you dont need qualifications,but you do need luck and a bit of common sence.

Jonny Fuller · 09 March 2003, 18:43

I think we almost agree...Yipeeeee

crazyhorse · 09 March 2003, 18:47

We agree only if you agree that this is a job for some proffesional /experianced advice,if you want to have a good chance of getting the ballance right. or be a gambler with less odds in your favour

Jonny Fuller · 09 March 2003, 19:38

Sorry CH,
I've been boating most of my life, putting together, rigging, setting up, testing, and racing all sorts of different boats for all sorts of applications both for me, and for all sorts of customers, for racing and just for pleasure, many of which were from bare boats, trying along the way loads of differing ideas.
I'm quite happy to carry on relying on my own educated guestimations as they've served me well so far.
I think there's nothing better than to teach one's self the hard way, so just do it, and if it's not right, just do it again!

I know, stubborn SOB, that's me.
Just ask Dirk he'll tell you!

crazyhorse · 09 March 2003, 19:54

Well JF your gota get use to a guy like me that wants to help others with there decisions as it isnt easy,and it is so easy to cock up.

I have owned differnt boats for yrs and went offshore as much as possible as I love the Sea.

When I started on my rib project it has taken a lot of Imformation to get to where I am today, and it isnt over yet.

I am no proffesional just somebody who trys to make a informed judgment and trys to make the best decisions he can based on those I respect and there advice.
I have employed what I think is the best and taken for there ideas from hear and rib international as I believe there is a lot of hidden talent on here and I have used what I feel is prudent. It is also my belief that most boat desiners forget what the man in the street realy wants,as he wants commercial proffit.

If I have made a mistakes in my judgments then so be it.

I feel I havnt but I am aware that the proof will be when we use our boat on the water and the sea trials.

So fingers crossed but I feel I have a good team.In my humble oppinion.

Dirk Diggler · 09 March 2003, 19:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon Fuller
There are highly respected designers, in this country and others, who will design you a race boat, on testing it's not unusual to find the boat unsafe or uncompetetive, the same designer will then charge you again for work on trying to get the thing to work!
I've seen this go on for months with some boats, even years, and not always geting there in the end either. and I'm talking "well known, respected" designers! On the other hand, many of the most successfull boats that have ever raced have thier roots "on the back of a fag packet" from the man with the "feel for it"

Oi, your at it again, this morning you had a pop at Scorpion, now your having a go at Lorne Campbell!!

Jonny Fuller · 09 March 2003, 20:04

CH, did you see my post re: photo's of your yacht?

crazyhorse · 09 March 2003, 20:06

It isnt prudent the boat was sold 5 yrs ago and it was not a good sailer.I should of taken specilist advice when setting her up.