weight of outboard

[clydeoutboards]

Hi

re your points

1: this is 100% wrong. they can sell 2 strokes and other manufactures do
2: you have no evidence for this so why you have yoiu have writen it I have no idea
4: It does not matter what you measure in. The percentage difference is still the same.

FACT 1+ 1=2 and old 2 strokes burn a lot more fuel than new 4 strokes

Chris

Please dont take our word for why dont you join us on the following wager that if 9D280 loses he will give 6K to clyde outboards, 1K to us to reprove this point yet again! and the other 5K will be given to RNLI. If we lose we give him a free 60hp Honda engine with an RRP of over 8k

We put 9D280' engine on the back of a shetland 570 and a new honda on our other pals shetland 570. both are at balloch so easy to do. we the set them up to cruise at anywhere between 22-26 mph with 20l of fuel each traveling side by side.

a simple easy test and the boats will even be the same!

There is huge upside for doing this

chris gets to see a new honda
RNLI get a good donation
It will answer the question
It will be great fun

The good thing about this test is the faster we go the more fuel the Honda will burn, but so will the old 2 stroke and as a percentage difference this will stay the same or widen further.

so 9D280 are you ready for some fun and to give money to RNLI?


Dave

[9D280]

Originally Posted by clydeoutboards

Hi

re your points

1: this is 100% wrong. they can sell 2 strokes and other manufactures do
2: you have no evidence for this so why you have yoiu have writen it I have no idea
4: It does not matter what you measure in. The percentage difference is still the same.

to your replies

1) Not as far as Chris is concerned, unless he is running some commercial outfit or is actually in Oz and pretending to live in Scotland?

2) and I requote:
"Results will vary depending upon operating conditions (boat design, size, weight (load), weather, etc.)"
So can you tell me exactly how they got those numbers with a disclaimer like that?

4) so you are telling me if you strap a 4 stroke 60 which is on paper 50% more efficient on the back of my rib a couple of weeks ago I could have done the entire length of Loch Lomond & back on 15.2L of fuel? That ulitmately what you are claiming.

Originally Posted by clydeoutboards

FACT 1+ 1=2 and old 2 strokes burn a lot more fuel than new 4 strokes

As I have said millions of times before - at idle / low rpm pottering about rescue / fishing - yes I totally agree. But at WOT you still need to generate 60Hp via a machine that has a fair few laws of thermodynamics, mechanical inefficiency (at the heart of the machine it's reciprocating) and burning of fuel in an enclosed space at play.

or: Define "lot"? (see below)

Originally Posted by clydeoutboards

Chris

Please dont take our word for why dont you join us on the following wager that if 9D280 loses he will give 6K to clyde outboards, 1K to us to reprove this point yet again! and the other 5K will be given to RNLI. If we lose we give him a free 60hp Honda engine with an RRP of over 8k

We put 9D280' engine on the back of a shetland 570 and a new honda on our other pals shetland 570. both are at balloch so easy to do. we the set them up to cruise at anywhere between 22-26 mph with 20l of fuel each traveling side by side.

a simple easy test and the boats will even be the same!

There is huge upside for doing this

chris gets to see a new honda
RNLI get a good donation
It will answer the question
It will be great fun

The good thing about this test is the faster we go the more fuel the Honda will burn, but so will the old 2 stroke and as a percentage difference this will stay the same or widen further.

errrr look at your own graphs. The faster you go the better for the 2-stroke!

Originally Posted by clydeoutboards

so 9D280 are you ready for some fun and to give money to RNLI?

Dave

As I've said already, I know it's going to be a bit more efficient, but had you actually bothered to read my original comment, you would note the use of the words "WOT" and "naff all" in the same sentence. I am fully aware there will be a difference but a small one (see below).

As I have never said 2- strokes were more efficient but only that the difference at WOT isn't as big as some may imply, I'm going to politely decline your wager. The RNLI gets plenty of donations from me already so they aren't going to loose out




Let's do some maths relevant to Chris' situation:
(Chis, feel free to substitute your actual mileage & engine / fuel costs to the equation for a real world appraisal)


Chris could buy £8Ks worth of wonder engine, which will burn "50% less fuel" than whatever second 2- stroke hand lump he buys. So let's assume this 50% is actually acheivable in the real world, and imagine Chris could also buy a really good condition 2- stroke for, say £2000. Going in point: £6k still in his pocket. Call it 4800L at £1.25/ L

Now, lets say Chris is out every weekend doing an avearage of 50 nautical miles per weekend over the year. If he were using my rib with it's 1960s designed engine that would equate to 50*0.82L= 41L / weekend. or 2132L per year.

So, let's now imagine he's got the wonder engine that literally drinks half of what my old 2- stroke does. (I use this to make a point - I am fully aware nobody is claiming real world numbers like this) so Chris' boat would then drink 1066L/year.

So, to save 1066L/year (£1332.50) He'd be spending £6k. Or put another way a 4.5 years to break even. And that with a fairly hefty use for a leisure boat. If he's only out every other weekend that's a 9 year payback!

Now, doing the same maths with a 30% save, it's an annual 852.8L / saving or £1066 and a 5.5 year breakeven for an every weekend assumption.


Those numbers are still screaming 2- stroke to me....

[spartacus]

Originally Posted by 9D280

Chris could buy £8Ks worth of wonder engine, which will burn "50% less fuel" than whatever second 2-stroke hand lump he buys. So let's assume this 50% is actually achievable in the real world, and imagine Chris could also buy a really good condition 2- stroke for, say £2000. Going in point: £6k still in his pocket. Call it 4800L at £1.25/L. Those numbers are still screaming 2-stroke to me....

I think we need to get Carol in for this one!

+1 for 9D280

[Boats&Outboards]

I see both sides

Yes over 5 years to "break even" but that's all the while running with a almost silent, smoke free reliable engine under warranty. After the 5 years it's resale would be say £3,000 so that's also bringing the numbers down. The 2 stroke in that same 5 years may have run it's life meaning 1 of 2 things. Either no re-sale value or you have to spend another £2,000 to replace. Also as its already 2nd hand when you buy it there's no guarantees it will run for the 5 years without faults, more cost. Worst case it blows a piston or two and again your in for another £2,000 to replace the engine. You could end up doing that twice in the 5 years (extreme and unlikely) so you've run with an old 2 stroke at the same cost as you could with a fancy new 4 stroke

On the other hand like you say most leisure use is very limited so it's a high outlay for something that you may not use too much. Plus it's more expensive to service, more risk for theft.

Peter ~ Boatsandoutboards4sale ~ askboatsandoutboards4sale@sky.com ~ 07930 421007

[two stroke mick]

Why do you want so much power on a dr 490?

I have a etec 60 on mine and it is plenty. I cannot use it at wot as the boat becomes unstable as it approaches 30 KN. The extra weight on the transom will also distroy the handling of a DR 490. The etec is 112 kgs and I still have to ballist the bow. My advice use a 60 hp of a weight no greater than 112 kgs. lighter is better.

TSM

[chrishowden]

Originally Posted by two stroke mick

Why do you want so much power on a dr 490?

I have a etec 60 on mine and it is plenty. I cannot use it at wot as the boat becomes unstable as it approaches 30 KN. The extra weight on the transom will also distroy the handling of a DR 490. The etec is 112 kgs and I still have to ballist the bow. My advice use a 60 hp of a weight no greater than 112 kgs. lighter is better.

TSM

Thanks for the advice what size of prop do you have on your etec?

Cheers
Chris

[two stroke mick]

For diving and heavy loads 13.25 dai by 17 pitch

say engine 112 kg
fuel 60 kg
ballist in anchor locker 35kg
A frame and assorted items 30 kg
battery 10 kg
anchor and chain 12 KG
DIVERS AND COXN 570 KG
total 829 kgs.

The boat feels wallowy with this load but the etec 60 and a 13 * 17 prop will move it no problem (on the plane)
for ligher runs i use a 13 *19 prop

fuel usage varies from 1.3nm/l to 1.5 nm/l

TSM

[C-NUMB]

Maybe the practical implementation in most cases is not so important but it is totally correct as 9D280 says, there is basically no difference in consumption between old 2 stroke and modern engines.

Have noted this in many tests in the 90 hp range, just searched randomly one:
http://marine.honda.com/pdf/props/St...20-%20BF90.pdf

Here the honda uses aprox 36 l/h. Think would beat that one with my old YAM AETO 90

[viking61]

interesting ( if old ) comparison of 115hp's here .
Comparison Test: Five Outboard Motors - Popular Mechanics

I agree that the savings in consumption do not add up for leisure use but IMO a quieter and newer unit make for more enjoyable boating and a much easier sale if required, plus the reduced consumption means less can carrying which i struggle with.

[willk]

Originally Posted by 9D280

If your hull was built before 2- stroke was banned...

Originally Posted by 9D280

It's a manufacturer's leaflet. They can't sell 2-stroke any more. It's in their interests to big up 4-st.

This comment may confuse some readers. I guess you refer to "old school" non injection 2-strokes, but others may not realise this.

Obviously, manufacturers still produce and sell 2 stroke direct injection engines. Again, it's the emissions that are banned, not the technology...

[Poly]

Originally Posted by willk

This comment may confuse some readers. I guess you refer to "old school" non injection 2-strokes, but others may not realise this.

Obviously, manufacturers still produce and sell 2 stroke direct injection engines. Again, it's the emissions that are banned, not the technology...

Don't be confusing 9d280 with your new fangled direct injection malarky; his idea of modern is 1:50 premix and autolube is exotic. Still one of them fancy shiny storm troopers would look out of place on the back of his boat!

[clydeoutboards]

re 9d280 comment of

"So, to save 1066L/year (£1332.50) He'd be spending £6k. Or put another way a 4.5 years to break even. And that with a fairly hefty use for a leisure boat. If he's only out every other weekend that's a 9 year payback! "

Sorry this is rubbish and miles out and this is shown in 2 ways

1: we dont get people in the shop wanting an old smelling fuel drinking 2 stroke. we do get people wanting to trade up from these, but none trading down

2. His maths above was great apart from missing half the sum out.

value of 2nd hand engine after 4 years IF it is still running circa £200-£300.
Value of a 2nd hand honda with the above low hours still under warranty ( 2 years left) around 3k
If you were v v unlucky in the Honda then you would get FREE warranty repairs. Odds of this happening with the old 2 stroke well I think we can all make our our mind up about this so.......

The maths

if we take even a silly figure of saying the honda is only worth 3k at 4 years old and the 2 stroke £500

You then get 8k new - 2k for the 2 stroke = down 6k - differnce in the 2nd hand values making it 4.5K extra to buy the 4 stroke that still has 2 years warranty after teh 4 years of use!

based on his sums of saving 1332.50 per year then payback is 3.37 years. Remember this also does not take into account any problems with the 2 stroke.

This is then a simpple choice based on his figures of

1: 2 stroke , v old not sure when it will break down and based on petrol prices of today ( remember how much they have gone up in the last 4 years) needs oil added but is cheaper to buy

2:buy a shiny new honda that drinks a lot less fuel ( prices will keep going up), has a 2nd hand value, free repairs IF needed for 6 years so would have 2 years warranty left even if sold after 4 years, no oil mixing, more reliable.

Option 2
Your other option is to buy a 2nd hand 4 stroke under warranty i.e. for 3-4k afer 4 years as above we are comparing a 2nd 2stroke with new engine and not 2nd hand with 2nd hand.

if you did this at 4k for the 4 stroke,based on his figures the payback would be less than 2 years for the extra 2K outlay. You also have no oil to mix and have an engine that still gets FREE repairs as it is under warranty. oh and if we take the resale value of these into account we get

max £500 for the 2 stroke
4 stroke 6 years old 2K ( yes it would be more but lets run with the low figure to help the 2 stroke out) so

This would mean that if you sold the 2nd hand 2 stroke and 4 stroke after the 4 years we have a difference of only £500.00. Payback on this 0.4 of a year and the 2nd hand 4 stroke is under warranty unlike the 2 stroke.

So even if you half the usage above and you buy a 2nd hand 4 stroke under warranty compared to an old 2 stroke the payback is less than 1 year based on fuel prices not going up and the old 2 stroke not breaking down over the 4 years!!!.

Dave

[9D280]

OK, real world snapshots:

My merc - Bought for your resale value, approx £1k of bits added due to previous ownere @rsing with the spark advance. I now have an as new engine for approx £1300. Granted it's an old tec premix. Servicing costs: Fuel pump diaphragm, impeller, a gearbox full of oil and 30 mins of my time once a year.

The Honda with it's 6 year warranty will require that + an engine oil change. I also assume it would need dealer serviced to keep the warranty valid? How much is a dealer service?

Let's be realistic - £2k for a 2- stroke isn't what you or anyone would pay for an oily smelly premix machine from 1972. It's a late model autolube with low hours & lots of TLC. That engine will not have lost £1800 in 4 years (abuse notwithstanding)

The £200 engine is the sort of tat I have fun rebuilding. So far I have bought two sub £100 engines, thrown between £20 - £200 of bits at them, used for a year or so and sold on for a bit more than the cost of the bits + the engine. Another two I have sold for what I bought them for.

Moral of the story: Be wary when making assumptions on the resale value of museum pieces!


Another reason I like 2-stroke - If you can find me a nice quiet clean 4- stroke (or new tech 2- stroke!) 60Hp at or around the 85Kg mark I'd be very interested in swapping. Put this in perspective: the trusty Yam 60 Autolube is right on the limit for my transom. (and I still want to hang an aux.)

Originally Posted by clydeoutboards

We need to disagree for the first time on this one.

As we have both now thrown enough at the thread that it's beginning to go round in circles, I think we should probably agree to disagree.

As we are also likely to find ourselves in the same pub by a pier sometime and I'd rather be talking ribnet banter over a glass of something than glaring at each other through the smoke from my engine* acoss the room!


Bottom line is the old tech 2-stroke works for me. 4 stroke works for you. They both push our boats along in a way that suits us. Let's all get back to answering Chris' questions so he can decide what's best for him.






* It's not that bad, honest!

[9D280]

Originally Posted by willk

This comment may confuse some readers. I guess you refer to "old school" non injection 2-strokes, but others may not realise this.

Obviously, manufacturers still produce and sell 2 stroke direct injection engines. Again, it's the emissions that are banned, not the technology...

What? they have computers in engines now????

Yes, that was a particularly non specific comment. I was referring to Pre Euro 1 engines.

Originally Posted by Polwart

Don't be confusing 9d280 with your new fangled direct injection malarky; his idea of modern is 1:50 premix and autolube is exotic. !

Aye, it was the pile of coal in the bow that ruined my performance before I got the merc.....

Originally Posted by Polwart

Still one of them fancy shiny storm troopers would look out of place on the back of his boat!

It'll be fine once I get round to sorting out the toobs!

[Poly]

Originally Posted by 9D280

What? they have computers in engines now????

aye, and the best ones probably have a faster internet connection than your dial up!

[9D280]

Originally Posted by Polwart

aye, and the best ones probably have a faster internet connection than your dial up!

Two yoghurt pots & a bit of string would be faster that that!