Changes to Mayday call

[GaryC]

Originally Posted by SPR

I always teach , i would better giving my position - a absolute relative position - as Seaskills says bearing and distance of known point.

this is again if somebody is nearby they are more than likely know where they are , rather than gps position. and easier to say!

regards

S.

I think you have to use a bit of common sense though. I have dealt with the coastguard a number of times and given them the GPS position. They were happy with it and said that they were passing it directly to the chopper. This was largley because we were diving in Brid Bay which is pretty featureless and the about 20 miles offshore on each occasion.

Gary

[SPR]

yes - if you have used the DSC Alert button to start the call, they would get you GPS if your radio is connect to GPS.

Yes - common sense prevails and I know some don't have DSC radios, best bit of kit out there so good if you know how to use one....

S.

[captnjack]

I know we gots lots of experts here... but has anyone actually made a mayday or pan pan call?

I have actually called our coust guard for an urgent situation once. 3 lost & overdue divers ended up where they weren't supposed to be. Unfortunately I happened to be alone on another fellow's RIB with no working radio (didn't know that until I needed it). So I used my cell phone. Worked fine and I didn't use mayday or pan pan, we could talk quite clearly about where I was, where I had already looked for them, and all the other particulars. They happened to be sitting on the beach about the time of my call. The local fire boat found them about 35minutes later, they knew where to expect them to wash up.

[GaryC]

Originally Posted by captnjack

I know we gots lots of experts here... but has anyone actually made a mayday or pan pan call?

I have had 2 incidents (roughly similar location but seperated by a couple of years) where a diver has missed about 15 minutes of decompression (i.e. a rapid uncontrolled ascent)

We raised the Coastguard in the normal manner [coastguard x3 boat name x3]

At the end of the incident the Coastguard told us that a Mayday call would have been better because if they don't pick up the call (this was non DSC) then there is a good chance that another boat would have heard us and passed on the info to the coastguard. They also said that if the call turns out to not really warant a Mayday then THEY will downgrade it accordingly. My take on that was if in doubt, send a Mayday.

I know that in the UK, a lot of folk are fearful of the Coastguard. We had a trip around the Coastguard place at Bridlington and it was a very good experience. Their mindset was that they do want to hear from us. If it is a true incident and you are in doubt about a Mayday then a Mayday is probably the right thing to do.

The MOB you have to use your common sense. A MOB diver in flat water on a sunny day is totally different from a yachty falling off a yacht at night in cold windy conditions.

Gary

[tim griffin]

Originally Posted by Polwart

My safety brief is simple. If I'm "not here" then mayday procedure as per the printed instructions. What circumstances does your safety brief suggest that the skipper is no longer in charge of the vessel, and it is not a mayday. (if there are other experienced people on board then they will be able to make the decision but also don't really need a "card").

I can see that if you were no longer on your 3 m funyak when out with friends then a Mayday call would be required.

I teach from the novice up to Yachtmaster so am not always going to have experienced people on board to make the correct call if for what ever reason I am unable to .

We have the cards onboard for this and you can buy them as I said before from most chandleries also some good examoples in skippers cockpit guide .
Als a good book for those doing theory courses.
Tim

[Solent Ranger]

Originally Posted by SeaSkills

Ok, let's start with where I agree with you. The most important thing is to summon help by any means possible. I'm pretty well with you on that one

Now, where do I have some issues:

1/ Pan Pan unless on fire or sinking. If you have a serious illness or injury, for example - make that a Mayday too, please. If it's me that's seriously ill or hurt, I DEFINITELY want it to be a Mayday!

2/ MMSI is nice to add. Yes, fair point - but you need to consider the people taking your call too. If you've sent a DSC alert (ie you've pressed the red button), what will appear on screen is your MMSI. If you then use your callsign or your boat name to identify yourself and don't include your MMSI, you open the possibility of confusion, Making it clear that there is one distress call and not two increases your chances of success. If your country hasn't caught up with digital technology yet, fair enough. Where it is used, it's best to use it properly

3/MMSI could be confused with Lat and Long. I'd argue that is unlikely - but my stronger argument would be not to use Lat and Long anyway. Position as bearing and distance from something you can see is usually a better option. As you say though, position is more important than MMSI, no question about that

Ian

Right, having now been in touch with several authorities over and above the RYA I can say the following.

The original "proposal" was put forward at the World Radio Communications Conference in 2007 and was ratified by the ITU in 2010. It has taken sometime to filter down through the system but RYA VHF Assessors were advised of the change early 2011.

The wording is as follows. Do please note that there are two basic parts to a Mayday - the Distess call and the Distress message - this has always been the case.

32.13C § 9A 1) The distress call sent on the frequency 156.8 MHz (VHF channel 16) shall be given in the following form:
– the distress signal MAYDAY, spoken three times;
– the words THIS IS;
– the name of the vessel in distress, spoken three times;
– the call sign or other identification;
– the MMSI (if the initial alert has been sent by DSC). (WRC-07)


32.13D 2) The distress message which follows the distress call should be given in the following form:
– the distress signal MAYDAY;
– the name of the vessel in distress;
– the call sign or other identification;
– the MMSI (if the initial alert has been sent by DSC);
– the position, given as the latitude and longitude, or if the latitude and longitude are not known or if time is insufficient, in relation to a known geographical location;
– the nature of the distress;
– the kind of assistance required;
– any other useful information. (WRC-07)

Also note that the MMSI is only sent when the initial alert has been sent using the DSC function - the Red Button! So if you don't have a DSC set then you can't send it by DSC and therefore no MMSI required - common sense! But even if you have a fixed non DSC radio you should send your call sign.

Position does not have to be in Lat and Long, and I tend to suggest that a position other than lat and long - either bearing from a fixed point or just a simple statement like "I am in Osbourne Bay" is preferable - mainly because somebody close by may not know where you are in relation to where they are by looking at the GPS position

In fact, when I did my Yachtmaster exam - a few years ago now - I was asked by the examiner, a coastguard officer, to make a mock mayday call. I used as my position my location in relation to a point on the shore - he almost went apoplectic with delight and got very excited telling the other candidates on-board that that was how to do it!

I "suggest" to people on my courses that unless of course you are mid channel with no reference point then a location by name is better than a lat and long. If you have sent the alert using DSC and the set is connected to a GPS you lat and long will go anyway and the coast guard can work on that, meanwhile somebody just around "the corner" knows exactly where you are.

At the end of the day it will be commons sense (hopefully) that will come into play. There are two ways to use the card - as in fact there are to use a lamp post, the sober man will use it for illumination, the drunk for support - actually the card is better than a lamp post - it can be used in both ways!

It does not worry me if you use my suggested card or not, but even if it is just a bit of tape with call sign and MMSI number stuck next to the radio, it will at least help. I also suggest that completing a CG 66 is not a bad idea either. MCA - CG66

For those with low esteem of the CG, again this is not the MCA enforcing this, it is an International directive. In terms of having to do it right or not get help is of course nonsense, but surly for the time it takes to have something prepared is better than having nothing when the **** hits the fan! What else have you got to do on dark winter, blowy cold days?

[tim griffin]

Well done Dave clears it up for many .
Re your examiner that would have been Pip I am guessing .
Tim

[Solent Ranger]

Originally Posted by tim griffin

Re your examiner that would have been Pip I am guessing .
Tim

None other than -

[jyasaki]

Solent Ranger;

Are you saying that your intial post was incorrect and the one 3 above is a correction?

To refresh, the OP read:

You are now required to say both your MMSI number and your call sign twice.

The post just up from here says:

– the MMSI (if the initial alert has been sent by DSC). (WRC-07)
[snip]
Also note that the MMSI is only sent when the initial alert has been sent using the DSC function - the Red Button! So if you don't have a DSC set then you can't send it by DSC and therefore no MMSI required - common sense! But even if you have a fixed non DSC radio you should send your call sign.

The latter implies that you never need to relay the MMSI by voice at all.

Just trying to clarify;

jky

[SPR]

to clarify :

1) DSC Sets - if red button is used then on your voice call use the MMSI & Call Sign.

2) non-dsc sets : you don't have an MMSI number to transmit so you can't send it! so it is CALL SIGN only.

[PeterM]

Originally Posted by SPR

to clarify :

2) non-dsc sets : you don't have an MMSI number to transmit so you can't send it!

But you should / may have a callsign depending on if your on fixed set (should have one!) or a handheld.

Or am I being pedantic( a pain in the backside?)

If in doubt just call someone with something useful........

[Festinghouse]

from what i remember, you hit the distress button first then you broadcast infomation (for the people without dsc) in order of priority - name, position, distress and number of people on board. they can ask for the rest if they want to in their reply - having read call sign and mmsi out twice you could have drifted 3miles!
i have my call sign and mmsi on my console but i think in a heavy rolling sea and say no engine, i would have trouble reading it without making a mistake! dsc does all that for you in less than a second, and switches other radios onto ch16 at the same time so everyone can hear your broadcast.

[Festinghouse]

Originally Posted by GaryC

At the end of the incident the Coastguard told us that a Mayday call would have been better because if they don't pick up the call (this was non DSC) then there is a good chance that another boat would have heard us and passed on the info to the coastguard. They also said that if the call turns out to not really warant a Mayday then THEY will downgrade it accordingly. My take on that was if in doubt, send a Mayday.

I know that in the UK, a lot of folk are fearful of the Coastguard. We had a trip around the Coastguard place at Bridlington and it was a very good experience. Their mindset was that they do want to hear from us. If it is a true incident and you are in doubt about a Mayday then a Mayday is probably the right thing to do.

Gary

i agree, the coastguard are great and really helpful. i speak to them a fair bit and have helped them out twice - the first time we helped look for a boat that had triggered a dsc distress call (turned out to be a false alarm) but they insisted we call them when we returned to shore, which i did and they went to great lengths thanking us for helping out. ive also heard them dealing with people who have sent mayday calls which they have later downgraded - they are quite happy to do this and the caller didnt get a bollocking or anything - they are just glad to be told of any problem in its earliest stages.

[SeaSkills]

Originally Posted by Festinghouse

- having read call sign and mmsi out twice you could have drifted 3miles!

Good - exageration for comic effect. We've been missing that lately. I reckon it takes about half a minute to make a proper Mayday call including all the information. Even if it took twice that long, your rate of drift would be 180 knots. (unless of course your location was "just gone over the waterfall")

Originally Posted by Festinghouse

i have my call sign and mmsi on my console but i think in a heavy rolling sea and say no engine, i would have trouble reading it without making a mistake! dsc does all that for you in less than a second, and switches other radios onto ch16 at the same time so everyone can hear your broadcast.

Not quite. DSC includes your MMSI but not your callsign, and won't switch other radios onto Ch16. It's still important for us to keep a listening watch on Ch16 (even if it's on dual watch

The SRC course spends a disproportionate amount of time on the Distress call so that it becomes memorised as much as possible. Ideally, the card is there as a reminder rather than a script. I advise my trainees to remind themselves of the procedure periodically - from time to time just run over it in their head ...... if something happened to me here, what would the Mayday call be? (I still do it myself, and I still make the odd mistake - but I put that down to age these days)

[jyasaki]

Originally Posted by SeaSkills

Not quite. DSC includes your MMSI but not your callsign,

It should have boat name or registration number; well, it does here in the US. I thought that was the point of MMSI: to get boat and owner info (and some inferred info such as regularly visited area) from a single piece of data?

jky

[SeaSkills]

Originally Posted by jyasaki

It should have boat name or registration number; well, it does here in the US. I thought that was the point of MMSI: to get boat and owner info (and some inferred info such as regularly visited area) from a single piece of data?

jky

For us, every DSC call contains the following information:

•the identity of the calling station;
• the priority of the call - DISTRESS, URGENT, SAFETY or ROUTINE;
•the station(s) being called (a specific station or ALL stations); and
•the channel on which subsequent communications are to be carried out by radiotelephone (apart from distress calls, which always default to channel 16).

If the set is linked to a functionning GPS, it also includes position information and time

There are ways for us to link that to other means of getting additional information about the boat, owner etc (MMARS database, or the CG66 records) but nothing that is very efficient. In a distress situation, it is the voice part of the call that pulls everything together. The better it is, the easier it becomes for the SAR teams.

[Solent Ranger]

Originally Posted by SeaSkills

The SRC course spends a disproportionate amount of time on the Distress call so that it becomes memorised as much as possible. Ideally, the card is there as a reminder rather than a script. I advise my trainees to remind themselves of the procedure periodically - from time to time just run over it in their head ...... if something happened to me here, what would the Mayday call be? (I still do it myself, and I still make the odd mistake - but I put that down to age these days)

I totally agree with you,. I an in fact going to run half day refresher courses so people can keep up to speed if they want to.

[wavelength]

Not quite. DSC includes your MMSI but not your callsign, and won't switch other radios onto Ch16. It's still important for us to keep a listening watch on Ch16 (even if it's on dual watch

a dsc distress alert will switch other dsc radios within range from a working channel to ch16 and sound an alarm provided they are not transmitting at the time. If it does not get them because of that it will do on the 4 minute repeat transmission unless its been cancelled. The ability to switch other radios to ch16 is the big bonus around this neck of the woods cos all the local angling boats use ch8 like a CB and never see ch16. However they all have lotsa electronics (boys and their toys) including dsc radio. Calling them on 16 is a waste of time and has caused loadsa problems in the past especially when they were night fishing as ch8 is not a cg used channel. Thats why I used to get called at *!*! o clock in the morning to sort jobs out. However now the common fisheries policy has murdered all our fish we don't have that problem-or fish!

[SeaSkills]

And for the nerdiest of nerds who really want those geek points, try here;
www.gmdss.com.au/ITU%20DSC%20tech%20spec.pdf
(I had to plough through this to write a techie article a while back - serious yawnage)

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Solent Ranger

I totally agree with you,. I an in fact going to run half day refresher courses so people can keep up to speed if they want to.

It will be interesting to see if you get much sign up. I can't imagine many people would do the standard SRC course if it weren't for one of the following:

- its legally required (everyone on my course had however been using one for several years unlicensed before getting round to it)
- they need it to comply with some other course / requirement (e.g. to take an Advanced course etc).
- they know absolutely nothing about radios and need an initial introduction
- they are an "official certificate collector"

Now if you run an "unofficial" course its not going to tick those boxes. If I were creating an unofficial course it would be focussed around "getting the most from your DSC vhf radio" rather than the distress elements which everyone hopes they will never need; and accepts that in the heat of the moment any reasonable attempt will do. The problem with 'getting the most' from your DSC VHF is that learning how to do it on one brand/model won't necessarily transfer easily to others.