Insurance (or so called)

clydeoutboards · 15 March 2012, 09:40

Hi All

Had a client in 2 days ago who had had is engine stolen from a secure marina with bolted gates (90Hp Tohatsu 2009) with the boat being on a trailer.

The insurance company is saying they will not pay out due to him having no anti theft locking nuts!.

when he read the small print it also stated that he not only needed anti theft nut locks but also a proof or purchase! When he asked for qualification of this small print it was stated not only did he need the actual amount paid but also the proof of purchase must show the type of anti theft nut bought.

Now this all seems v stupid as the thieves could have just cut part of the transom or launched the boat and taken the whole thing away.

So, who are you with please and have you read the small print and if so do you need locking nuts.

Dave

Festinghouse · 15 March 2012, 10:11

i had one quote off a company once who stated in their small print that when the boat was not at home it would only be insured if it was chained to the floor of a securely locked building! what a get out! when they asked me if they could sign me up i informed them that their policy was damn near useless and was bordering on criminal as it was clear they would get out of paying any claim. read the small print - ive become paranoid about insurance now.

PeterM · 15 March 2012, 10:18

Its not so small nowadays, but most of the requirements are common sense ( with the exception of a few ) .

Wheel clamps and engine bolt locks I feel really are obvious......... I bet anyone with alloy wheels has locking nuts on them and they are worth £100 each ....an engine worth at least £3-4k deserves the same ?

I do get a little tired of hearing 'insurance' is a rip off. Its totally fair if you bother to read the policy and understand it & do what is asked and what you are covered for. Maybe thats because it is my job to sort these thinsg out afterwards so I do see and hear all sides of the story.

Ask the questions up front and talk to people who know what they are on about and you wont go wrong.

clydeoutboards · 15 March 2012, 11:33

Hi

If it was in bold and was clearly stated up front then we would have no problem but in my customers case this was not done as he would have bought some locking nuts to comply.

for this reason we want to put a page in our helpfull info section with what to look out for and who is giving good or bad customer service.

for us small print should be banned and it should be made v clear what is and what is not covered. Sorry rant over.

PeterM · 15 March 2012, 11:48

I can see your point and to combat this the FSA changed the rules a few years ago in that now ( and I forget the exact wording ) all key exclusions or warranties should be made clear . Ie if you need a lock for cover to bein place they should have said ...

He can alway make a formal complaint to the company / broker saying this was not made clear, however if he has been sent the policy wording I expect it will have been made clear that he should read it & ask if he is not sure about anything in it ...which the insurer/ broker will rely on as meeting thier duty.

He can alway then refer to the FSA themselves ( it wont cost him anything to do any of this - but may cost the broker/ insurer) . He can always look at the FSA principles of ' treating customers fairly' which is a big thinig in these cases - a quick google will show them up ......

Can you tell I have been down this route before form both sides ?

Poly · 15 March 2012, 16:09

Dave,

Locking devices on both trailers and engines is fairly standard on small boat insurance in my experience (I think my own says something like "an appropriate security device will be fitted to the engine when left unattended" and the trailer "will be fitted with a wheel clamp when stored outside a locked building" or something similar).

Would you expect your car insurance to payout if the car is left unlocked with the keys in the ignition (almost certainly a 'small print exclusion') or your house insurance to cover a bike left in your garden without a lock on it.

I'm fairly sure mine doesn't have an explicit requirement for a receipt on it - but the obligation probably falls to you to show it was secure.

Searider · 15 March 2012, 17:37

Who is the insurer?

All the policies i've had state that the outboard should be locked on.

Had one policy which stated that the rib must not be left unattended on a mooring. Ass taking it to Cornwall on holiday and it was to spend 2 weeks on a mooring I phoned the broker and discussed it. They were happy to waive that requirement for my holiday.

They can be quite helpful sometimes!

clydeoutboards · 15 March 2012, 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polwart

Dave,

Locking devices on both trailers and engines is fairly standard on small boat insurance in my experience (I think my own says something like "an appropriate security device will be fitted to the engine when left unattended" and the trailer "will be fitted with a wheel clamp when stored outside a locked building" or something similar).

Would you expect your car insurance to payout if the car is left unlocked with the keys in the ignition (almost certainly a 'small print exclusion') or your house insurance to cover a bike left in your garden without a lock on it.

I'm fairly sure mine doesn't have an explicit requirement for a receipt on it - but the obligation probably falls to you to show it was secure.

re above , I must admit that the receipt bit shocked me as many of them just have an amount and total with no description of what was bought. As for being standard I really don't see the point in the locking nuts as they just cut your transom/ or try and steel the whole boat.

PeterM · 15 March 2012, 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by clydeoutboards

I really don't see the point in the locking nuts as they just cut your transom/ or try and steel the whole boat.

What will actually happen is they will move on and nick the one that is not locked.( your clients ! ).....which from an insurers perspective is job done !

Why bother with a pesky lock when you can just spanner up and get one with no noise or drama?

clydeoutboards · 15 March 2012, 21:24

Hi PeterM

does that not depend on the engine! i.e. why steel an old 2 stroke when you can use a saw and get a nice new big 4 stroke?

Searider · 15 March 2012, 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by clydeoutboards

Hi PeterM

does that not depend on the engine! i.e. why steel an old 2 stroke when you can use a saw and get a nice new big 4 stroke?

Quick and easy to do with less chance of being caught.

Probably easier to sell on a 10 year old 90hp 2 stroke for £1895 than a 2 year old Yam 200 4 stroke for £8k?

Thieves are lazy and pick the easy fruit.

PeterM · 15 March 2012, 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by clydeoutboards

Hi PeterM

does that not depend on the engine! i.e. why steel an old 2 stroke when you can use a saw and get a nice new big 4 stroke?

A fair question , but most big new 4 strokes have all sorts of fancy gadgetry that will show they are nicked or make them trackable...I think the verados for one? And the risk of capture is far more if making noise in the night.

There was a very nice ribcraft a few years ago near me where they cut the boat off its pontoon, removed seating and consoles, cut the lock off , removed a 250 4s suzuki while the boat was floating in 1 foot of water !

If they want it they will get it - just make it as difficult and noisy as possible !

Poly · 16 March 2012, 17:16

Dave, the same principle applies to all locks... cars were very easy to nick until about 20 yrs ago - and being locked just made it inconvenient, the bikes in your garden are easily nicked too even if locked, but you need to go slightly more tooled up, be prepared to make a bit more noise and take a bit longer. Its not unreasonable for the insurer to expect you to do more than just bolt several thousand pounds on the back of a boat and leave it. I also don't think it is unreasonable for them to expect you to know that such requirements are likely to exist and check them in the policy (just as a bike or motorbike owner might check to see if a bike needs to be locked, or locked with a specific type/standard or lock). The question might be why, when it is essentially an industry wide requirement, are all new outboards not simply supplied with locking bolts (as per car wheelnuts). [I believe some manufacturers (or perhaps it is specific dealers?) may already do this].

Leapy · 22 March 2012, 06:55

Off the back of this thread I rang my broker - Porthcawl - yesterday. They said that for a boat left on a trailer anywhere, secure or unsecure, I should fit a wheel clamp, locking wheel nuts and a hitch lock, together with an outboard lock. This I knew. They also stated - and this I didn't know - I should have a photo of them fitted

This is a one-off photo and doesn't need to be re-taken every time the boat is recovered onto the trailer.

I think I'd be pi$$ed if I had to re-photo every time I recovered the boat but nevertheless this photo requirement - whilst understandable to a degree - does seem slightly flawed

Receipts were considered a 'nice to have' and not an 'essential'.

As Porthcawl are a major marine broker I assume this must be the norm.

Be aware

Pikey Dave · 22 March 2012, 08:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leapy

I should have a photo of them fitted

My broker advised this too. Although not a requirement of the policy, he said that in the event of a claim it would just make life easier. FWIW my boat came fitted with outboard locking nuts from new. I think that insurance approved ones are about 40 quidish, in the big scheme of things, bu99er all. My work van has to have, deadlocks, tracker, toolvault-- it's just the way things are, especially when you've got roaming gangs of foreigners scouring the country for easy targets

mick · 22 March 2012, 08:57

Locking wheel nuts waste of time

willk · 22 March 2012, 10:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leapy

I think I'd be pi$$ed if I had to re-photo every time I recovered the boat but nevertheless this photo requirement - whilst understandable to a degree - does seem slightly flawed

I often use my phone's camera to record small details and scenes for later reference. Good for recording machine parts, signage, removal stages of parts etc. No reason why a quick snap of a boat would be a big issue, after all, how many times a year do we actually move them?

PeterM · 22 March 2012, 10:56

As Willk said - a quick snap is easy to do.

I'm sure I've mentioned before that when it comes to making a claim your 'job' is to make is simple as possible for insurers to say ' yes - we will pay it' , and try to actually talk & meet with anyone if you can and think of them as your best mate for the day. Try and help them and they really will so you OK .

I made a claim form Porthcawl for a tender a few years ago and the photo of it showing it was marked with the name of the boat proved I had complied with thier requirements.

The easier you make it the quicker and less fuss it will be if you need to claim.

clydeoutboards · 22 March 2012, 12:08

Well I just went to renew mine and found that personal items do not include, camera's phones, laptops, Tablet PC,'s any form of music player, wallets i.e only clothes.

mmmm not happy

Leapy · 22 March 2012, 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by willk

I often use my phone's camera to record small details and scenes for later reference. Good for recording machine parts, signage, removal stages of parts etc. No reason why a quick snap of a boat would be a big issue, after all, how many times a year do we actually move them?

W...Yes, I use the phone camera all the time to record things as you point out. Such as this, I most often use and delete. Pictures taken in case of crime now or in the future, presumably, I'll have to store and back up.

I don't know how many times "we" move our boats, but I move mine a lot over a year of home based fettling and holidays, and, having taken the shots this morning it turns out I need to take three to cover outboard lock, wheel clamp, wheel nuts and hitch lock. PITA.

Took a photo of my deadlocked car, ground anchored garden tractor, cable locked push bikes, the locked house front and back doors, the fact that the house and garage alarms were set etc etc etc - before I went out on the obligatory bacon butty run - whilst I was at it

Is this how it's going to become?