Ipad plotter/fishfinder busines????

[Bucksribster]

The Nexus 7 works reasonably well on my rib. The screen is possibly not quite as sunlight readable as the Garmin, but it is so much more user-friendly, and the charts so much better that I find I look at it much more than the Garmin. Mind you the Garmin is not mounted in a great position for the helmsman in my rib, and it has a very narrow viewing angle. I still use it for the sounder / fishfinder, and of course it is a get-you-home should the Nexus fail. I also have Navionics on my iphone, oh - and I carry paper charts as well.......

The Nexus setup I have is not a fully waterproof case, and the power connector is definitely not. It is more splash proof I would say. Time will tell if I need to do something better. I do not leave it on the boat, but take it home.

[davidni]

Much appreciated!

Regards the cost thing...I want a large screen without doubt. That is a priority along with reliability (software as physical issues have easy solutions). The ease of simple app updates and upgrades at much lower costs is also very enticing.

My phone is 5 inch screen and I find it too small for my liking when trying to look at lots of info at quick glance such as sat nav.

The little Raymarine Dragonfly 6 I've been offered SH has a 5.7 screen I think. I had a quick play with it...lovely, sharp screen, love the toggle...but I found the screen tiny for all the info being crammed on there.


It seems that something with a larger screen gets into serious money. All the chatter online about this ipad/tablet thing gave me the impression that its all starting to look quite 'together' as a concept. Especially this Raymarine WI FISH addition with its apps to tie the system together giving the option of split displays on a large screen tablet/ipad. It definitely looks impressive from where I am standing.

But agreed...if it doesn't work well out on the water then that's no good.

I used to have a little Motorola Defy phone. It was waterproof. I didn't even have a case on it. Took it kayaking sea and lake. It got soaked dozens of times. Accidentially lost it when working, only to find it buried under wet clay 3 days later. It was in my pocket climbing in all weathers. The little phone was just constantly wet and covered in dirt. Dropped it countless times. Finally cracked the screen after dropping too many times. But the phone never gave up...

With this in mind, one of the submersible hard cases should do a good job of keeping moisture out.

Been looking at android tablets too and there is just tins to choose from with 3/4g and big memory for not a lot of money.

Price wise the IPAD/TABLET option is a pure winner.

But its just good to get current user feedback as most online negatives seem to focus on the same things...battery, waterproofing, glare etc. All of which I don't see as an issue due to the solutions being right there.

The touchscreen...yes that's the only thing I cant find a solution to.

My friend advised me this morning that his dad has been plying with a tablet mounted outside on his Sea Hog. He's going to give me a call today with his thoughts on it all. Surprised me that actually...as he is definitely not a tech minded fella!

[Xk59D]

Starovich, Do you really think people on here have never had a pad or large smartphone on a boat?

I have on my boat 2 chart plotters plus my 10" pad with navionics I sometimes use (I like gadgets). One of my chart plotters is a Garmin 7" touchscreen and the other is a 5" traditional buttoned unit.

If anyone has experience of all walks of gps on a RIB and has a right in your eyes to speak about it, then I may slightly qualify....should one need to ofcourse.

1. No one said a pad won't work?

2. Fact is whether we like it or not, pads are not designed for the vibrations or conditions. See number 1 though!

3. vibrations/conditions from a bike and boat are chalk and cheese. The frequencies involved are vastly different. See number 1 though!

4. Cost wise there is nothing between a pad and a dedicated unit for sonar/chartplotter.

5. Pad offers better value for money, especially if used for other things. Screen wise it will blow the dedi away.

6. Pad won't send DSC info to vhf if that is a concern, can buy vhf with inbuilt these days if required though.

7. Pad can't connect to NMEA if that is a concern

8. Most chart plotters come with a 3 year warranty for this environment if that is a concern.

9. Pad isn't as easy to read in daylight, even with the screen adapters, very usable though.

10. Touchscreen isn't easy to adjust on the move, buttons are.

11. No one here has tried sonar yet with the pad, looks good though.

12. There is no way on earth WiFi is better than a cable to a dedicated unit for any info.

13. Shop about for chart plotters, I spent 30 seconds and found one. They do normally come with charts but you can upgrade should you want. Could spend as little as 150 quid if you wish.

14. The pad mapping and fish finder look as good if not better than similar priced dedi units.

Conclusion to all this, no one is right or wrong and my opinion is just as good or bad as yours, if you don't like it then another one will be along in a minute.

I also predict within 5 years most leisure boaters will be using something like this instead of dedi units, it will only get better over time.

David, in your position and for your use I would personally try the pad I think. Worst case scenario you have a pad to watch "things" on...can't be a bad thing! Haha

Cheers

[davidni]

Originally Posted by Xk59D

Starovich, Do you really think people on here have never had a pad or large smartphone on a boat?

I have on my boat 2 chart plotters plus my 10" pad with navionics I sometimes use (I like gadgets). One of my chart plotters is a Garmin 7" touchscreen and the other is a 5" traditional buttoned unit.

If anyone has experience of all walks of gps on a RIB and has a right in your eyes to speak about it, then I may slightly qualify....should one need to ofcourse.

1. No one said a pad won't work.

2. Fact is whether you like it or not, pads are not designed for the vibrations or conditions. See number 1 though!

3. vibrations/conditions from a bike and boat are chalk and cheese. The frequencies involved are vastly different. See number 1 though!

4. Cost wise there is nothing between a pad and a dedicated unit for sonar/chartplotter.

5. Pad offers better value for money, especially if used for other things. Screen wise it will blow the dedi away.

6. Pad won't send DSC info to vhf if that is a concern, can buy vhf with inbuilt these days if required though.

7. Pad can't connect to NMEA if that is a concern

8. Most chart plotters come with a 3 year warranty for this environment if that is a concern.

9. Pad isn't as easy to read in daylight, even with the screen adapters, very usable though. (Oh, I have one of those too before you ask)

10. Touchscreen isn't easy to adjust on the move, buttons are.

11. No one here has tried sonar yet with the pad, looks good though.

12. There is no way on earth WiFi is better than a cable to a dedicated unit for any info.

13. Shop about for chart plotters, I spent 30 seconds and found one. They do normally come with charts but you can upgrade should you want. Could spend as little as 150 quid if you wish.

14. The pad mapping and fish finder look as good if not better than similar priced dedi units.

Conclusion to all this, no one is right or wrong and my opinion is just as good or bad as yours, if you don't like it then another one will be along in a minute.

I also predict within 5 years most leisure boaters will be using something like this instead of dedi units, it will only get better over time.

Cheers

I appreciate this...some very valid points I hadnt even considered. Looking possibly like this is going to be a divided opinion subject.

If anybody reads this that is actively trying out ipad/tablet combined with the new sonar box thingys, please do share your experiences.

I'm seriously considering going for it.

[davidni]

Originally Posted by Bucksribster

The Nexus 7 works reasonably well on my rib. The screen is possibly not quite as sunlight readable as the Garmin, but it is so much more user-friendly, and the charts so much better that I find I look at it much more than the Garmin. Mind you the Garmin is not mounted in a great position for the helmsman in my rib, and it has a very narrow viewing angle. I still use it for the sounder / fishfinder, and of course it is a get-you-home should the Nexus fail. I also have Navionics on my iphone, oh - and I carry paper charts as well.......

The Nexus setup I have is not a fully waterproof case, and the power connector is definitely not. It is more splash proof I would say. Time will tell if I need to do something better. I do not leave it on the boat, but take it home.

The screen looks noticeably big in that pic...I like it.

[davidni]

These forums are great...it ain't that long ago that I would have had a fortnights effort to try and get instant feeback and advice before the internet took over world! It definitely isn't all bad.

[Xk59D]

Originally Posted by davidni

I appreciate this...some very valid points I hadnt even considered. Looking possibly like this is going to be a divided opinion subject.

If anybody reads this that is actively trying out ipad/tablet combined with the new sonar box thingys, please do share your experiences.

I'm seriously considering going for it.

Totally understandable, I would probably get the nexus 7 and wi-fish myself in your position.

If you know the area you are going and don't need to rely on it to be safe then there are little in the way of drawbacks for me.

The chartplotter world is at a cross roads I would suggest. There will likely be a major drop in sales in the low-midrange units in favour of pads. As you can see some are already catching on that they are likely no longer going to be supplying head units for much longer.

As an example, I have a Garmin 7" screen, they boast about the resolution of it. It is only 800x600! They also have the audacity to say you can't have TV playback on it....on a near 1k unit all up....unreal!!! However for every plotter sold there must be 10000 pads, completely different business model.

Cheers

[Starovich]

Half truths and myths.......
NMEA

Wifi Speeds are Massive and can handle huge data throughput "speeds ranging from 433 megabits-per-second (Mbps), all the way through to several gigabits per second." Citation more than enough for sonar, nmea and anything else you can think of passing though it.
Much easier to fit, wont wear out and requires no cables to break etc. wouldn't surprise me that most data exchanges between devices on board are wireless within 5 years, even down to controlling anchor winches and lights.

My last reply was initially to point out that you had obviously missed what i had said earlier, and that SOME of the posts were from people who had no experience, and to clarify the pricing so it was a fair comparison,its easy to say look at at this its less £££ when some of the important features are not there.

Then for clarity for ALL i listed the items people have been mentioning and pointed out MY experiences.

As you say either method is OK, depends on what you want.

[Xk59D]

Originally Posted by Starovich

Half truths and myths.......
NMEA

Wifi Speeds are Massive and can handle huge data throughput

Starovich,

No myths about this, simple facts.

We are not talking a lot of throuput on a boat network, it is literally a handful of kb per second in code between a plotter and GPS or the like. WiFi would actually cost more to do in most circumstances so boat builders are unlikely to do it as they have open decks at build time anyway to run cables.

When it comes to reliability you can NOT beat a cable. It is like free energy argument.

Again, doesn't mean it won't work, it just isn't better, best not confuse that.

Cheers

[Starovich]

I guess we will have to beg to differ then, mobiles, laptops pads, all use NO cable for data, Why? Because its easier simpler.

Few years ago house builders were starting to put CAT5 network cables in homes while they were building, do they now? no, because wifi is easier.

Apart from power do you need to have any cables to a plotter?
Now wireless sonar is out Im sure the big boys will jump on the bandwagon.

Which costs less to install, a wireless system or a wired? Especially as i would put money on the fact a lot if not most of chartplotters/sounders are not installed at build but added replaced, upgraded down the line

but that's a different discussion.

[Xk59D]

Originally Posted by Starovich

I guess we will have to beg to differ then, mobiles, laptops pads, all use NO cable for data, Why? Because its easier simpler.

Few years ago house builders were starting to put CAT5 network cables in homes while they were building, do they now? no, because wifi is easier.

Apart from power do you need to have any cables to a plotter?
Now wireless sonar is out Im sure the big boys will jump on the bandwagon.

Which costs less to install, a wireless system or a wired? Especially as i would put money on the fact a lot if not most of chartplotters/sounders are not installed at build but added replaced, upgraded down the line

but that's a different discussion.

cheers

[davidni]

Originally Posted by Xk59D

Totally understandable, I would probably get the nexus 7 and wi-fish myself in your position.

If you know the area you are going and don't need to rely on it to be safe then there are little in the way of drawbacks for me.

The chartplotter world is at a cross roads I would suggest. There will likely be a major drop in sales in the low-midrange units in favour of pads. As you can see some are already catching on that they are likely no longer going to be supplying head units for much longer.

As an example, I have a Garmin 7" screen, they boast about the resolution of it. It is only 800x600! They also have the audacity to say you can't have TV playback on it....on a near 1k unit all up....unreal!!! However for every plotter sold there must be 10000 pads, completely different business model.

Cheers

Ok, you got my attention with this one....

You mention if not relying on it for safety the Ipad/Tablet route is ok.

Could you possibly elaborate on the difference here?

Genuinely interested as I thought the actual 2 systems behaved much the same, therefore had assumed Ipad/Tablet route was just as good in this respect.

Please do highlight anything I may not be aware if as definitely I see plotter as an essential tool to help keep someone like myself on a learning curve...safe essentially.

As an additional aid that is.

[Biggy]

@DavidNi

I have an iPad Air, a lifeproof case, a vexilar SP300 t-box, Sonarphone App and the navionics maps.

The whole system works faultlessly, the screen on an iPad is much nicer to view/use than the fishfinders/plotters out there.
The wifi works without delay, proven when I used it in Wales this summer. I got the alerts, then seconds later I watched the fish go by...
The lifeproof case is very waterproof but I would advise anchoring it to your boat or using a floater on it as it doesn't float lol.
Battery life seems good, I can't give you times as yet as in still experimenting myself.
Certainly 3 or 4 hrs isn't a problem.

The navionics maps are about £40 and they're superb, they are the same sonar maps used on their plotters...just make sure you buy the correct ones .. ie: iPad won't work on phone, but phone will work on iPad.
The maps for a phone are £25.

Your iPad must be cellular for the GPS to work, or you have to use a separate Gps device.

The vexilar sp300 is the mobile version that comes with a built in battery.
If your permanently mounting it in a boat and you have the power source required, buy the cheaper fixed model.

The transducer comes with various mounts for attachment.

Overall, the system is superb.

I don't get on here much these days, but I can be pm'd if I can help anymore.

Regards,
Biggy 👍🏻


Member of F-RibsAndSibs.Com

[Biggy]

I found a link for you of someone that's using the system.

http://www.f-ribsandsibs.com/viewtop...cs+ios&start=0


Member of F-RibsAndSibs.Com

[Xk59D]

David, sure, allow me to clarify what i was meaning.

as you have a 4m boat you do not have the benefit (nor expense!) of having a console to hide equipment behind to keep it away from the worst. as we have established there is probably going to be an issue with charging the pad and keeping it 100% waterproof, probably not insurmountable though i would think?

now, a dedicated plotter can also fail at anytime, but the chances are much lower obviously due to design. i.e waterproof. i have only ever opened up my old hummingbird combo (788 i think it was) and there was evidence of shock proofing/waterproofing measures (potting and design queues as to where components mount) as well as the outside case design all to keep things in check.

i do not know if all companies do this so take that with a pinch of salt, i'm only saying it because i have seen it and it should be considered at design stage one would think. it is not often you hear of plotters failing these days, screens misting up yes but modern screens take care of that ailment by far and large. they keep working though for the most part.

get water on a phone/tablet and it is "normally" a different story as i am sure we all know. i can't be the only one to have put their phone on the radiator or a bag of rice after it got wet (not submerged)...whoops!

this is purely my opinion, others will vary ofcourse-

if we are talking about pure reliability (other than carry a chart/local knowledge) then you buy a dedicated unit. the hardware is custom built to run the custom software, there should be no need to reboot etc like a game crashing on a pad for example. the GPS will also link up with your VHF (or you can buy a DSC VHF), if anything happens you push 1 button and CG knows where you are. may be useful just in case anything happens to you and the kids only need to remember to push one button.

if we are talking about functionality then the pad offers more bang for buck.

somewhere in the middle is a compromise, which way it swings only you can decide bud.

my rule of thumb is pretty simple, plan for the worst and hope for the best. i would not trust a pad when the going gets tough, so i wouldn't take it somewhere i don't know without a backup, same applies to a dedi though ofcourse. but i would trust a dedi more to keep working when it is pi$$ing down and the waves are coming thick and fast.

BUT...i say again, that does not mean the pad will not work and in your shoes i would probably try it

cheers

[Starovich]

I Do feel like I'm banging my head against a wall.

SR's have a console, at least they did last time I checked


Xk59D, you say you think David should try a Pad, I agree, how come you are then doubting the waterproofness and charging

Not sure where this little "fact" came from?
"as we have established there is probably going to be an issue with charging the pad and keeping it 100% waterproof"

As far as I can see no one has posted a "My ipad is ruined as it got wet", in fact 2 people who actually use one as a primary nav device, have said just the opposite.

By that I mean not in a bag in the console for 90% of the time, just coming out for a look see, but mounted on a rail, (charging all the time) in as many conditions as you would want to take the boat out.

If you doubt the waterproofness, how can you tell some one to spend the money if you think its going to fail, either you are a believer or not, your points contradict.

Anyway, there is no point in carrying this on any further, David, if you still need more info PM me, or Biggy as we do exactly what you are proposing (Biggy obviously has the expertise with the sonar part).

[Xk59D]

Starovich, i have said everything i want to say, peace...out.

cheers

[ShinyShoe]

OK lets try and answer a few questions:

Android Device - will be FAR cheaper than an iPad. It will however be harder to find specific cases etc designed for it unless its a major name which means the $$$ goes up.
The WAFIs have used Hudl2's with success.

Beware not all devices have inbuilt GPS. No need for 3G card to get GPS to work. If you really want 3G on it share the 3G from your mobile.

You can add a separate GPS which talks via bluetooth but thats now a separate bt of kit a bluetooth connection that can fail and a devcie that needs charged. I used one YEARS ago when windows made the first smart phones. They worked, but they would switch off and need switched back on etc. Basically don't go that route or you'll spend your whole day out fixing issues...

Touch screen when wet = as much use as a wet paper chart! Yes same applies to plotters which is why most on here recommend on a RIB a plotter with buttons... Gesture without touch is improving all the time... ...but you wont be able to type...

Charging in case - limits case choices - A LOT. Often the are waterproof when the ports are covered. I'd be thinking of contactless charging as an option...

GPS sucks power. Bluetooth & WIFI suck power. Expect to get 3-4hours max without charger. You probably need > 500mA charge to avoid discharge. Some devices wont draw > 500mA if they aren't connected to a OEM charger. Assumign you can find a compatible solution it will draw 2.1A at 5V - thats about an amp at 12V. You needn't worry about your alternator keeping up.

No easy GPS Out. So if you need NMEA out for the DSC radio to have a position it wont be financially viable. Wont get GPS In from DSC/AIS so if a DSC alert is receive its not plotted.

4" ruggedised android phone would be an option but the screen is small...

[Poly]

David,

I wrote a long reply the other day which unfortunately failed to post via the app. Some people might say that was ironic given it was discussing the merits of mobile devices and apps!

I'm wasn't going to rewrite it all because life is too short and I can't be bothered with the inevitable argument. In essence though it said, I have tried large water proof phones on open boats. They work ok, but daylight readability, no* integration with VHF, charging, and touch-screens that don't work well when wet are all issues especially on very small boats like you and I have. There are work arounds for most of those issues but I still see phones/tablets as fall back rather than primary devices. That said if you have another fall back (like an old school GPS and printed chart) then you may grow to love it. If your boat was big enough then separate plotter and fishfinder screens would be nice - but you don't really have the space. I have also tried some very large touch screen plotters and whilst I think they might have been designed to work better with wet hands or gloves on? - I still think they don't work well if positioned where they get spray or rain on them. We will see more and more use of tablets and touchscreen dedicated devices in the future - but bear in mind that the majority of the market has a cabin/pilot house of some sort. Cables are a pain, so wifi is attractive but anyone who has ever tried to debug a connection issue knows a multimeter and screwdriver is much simpler, the one good thing is the dominance of mobile devices means hopefully the yachting manufacturers won't be tempted to do their usual stupid trick of inventing their own standard. I'm not sure if its clear if bluetooth, wifi, or perhaps LTE will win that battle long term, so being an early adopter could leave you stuck in Betamax territory.

However, what prompted me to repost was an Ad I saw for this: Lowrance Elite-4 HDI Combo with 83-200 455/800 kHz Transducer

Now it is a small screen compared to a tablet (still way bigger than my current one!), but it looked to me to be cheaper than the tablet route. It doesn't include maps - I'm trying to work out if my current map will work because if it did I might be tempted to upgrade myself. To be honest even a full size tablet involves more zoom in-out than I'd like and sometimes you just can't beat a paper chart. All solutions are a compromise. It might depend what else you'd use the tablet for and (a) what impact the kids breaking it might have on your boating and (b) what impact breaking it at sea might have on its "day job".

If I had a yacht or a cabin rib then I'd seriously consider a Sony Xperia Z tablet - but on a Searider (where many still rely on the old MkI Eyeball) I'm not convinced. If you do go down the "ipad" and wifi sonar route I am sure plenty of people will be interested to hear how you get on. Hopefully they'll manage to discuss your experience with civility!

* there probably is a way of getting the data off the phone and into an NMEA signal to wire to the radio but thats not going to be an insignificant cost.

[willk]

Originally Posted by Poly

I wrote a long reply the other day which unfortunately failed to post via the app. Some people might say that was ironic given it was discussing the merits of mobile devices and apps!

There's a lot of confusion about the use of the word "ironic". In this case, I think you could have used "lucky" instead...