Need a VHF

[kerny]

Originally Posted by rossymtb

Will keep my eye out. Would be good fun I bet to

See my post above this one

[IanH]

I found VHF course prices varied hugely even though you get exactly same instructor, equipment (real kit and people at other end of radio not just simulators) and location simply by watching prices and being prepared to take a place at last minute or by taking advantage of courses run for an establishment (in my case a local marina).

I got my course for £70 all in including the RYA exam fee simply by joining a marina orientated course the week before - I have no tie with the marina, but £30-£40 (cannot remember the course/certificate split) to the instructor was better than an empty seat. A few weeks before, I was looking at same instructor, same location, same course at iirc £70 + certificate on a fully booked course - instructor was kind enough to offer me the marina course at marina price as there was no place for me on public course. And yes, it covered all marine devices that required an Ofcom license and not just VHF/dsc.

[rossymtb]

Thanks "kerny" spoken to him in person before but not actually mentioned vhf. Will do next time I'm there or give him a quick call

[Poly]

Originally Posted by sergeant

I agree, but this could easily be an online based course, not requiring a classroom, equipment or instructor - it would always be accessible later for reference and could be priced far more reasonably with substantially more profit to be made by the companies offering it.

Courses like this need not be 'in person' training, its quite old fashioned.

There are people offering online training (not sure if they culminate in Certificates?). I'm not sure you can really understand how to use a radio properly without using one! Not can you really get a grasp on the challenges of listening and recording information etc unless you hear real people make real transmissions.

You will get training resources including the RYA book. It is unlikely you would get an on-line course for nearly free. The exam is £30 (if attending a course) and £70 for direct entrants. So you still have training cost on top of that.

Originally Posted by lakelandterrier

On inland waterways, canals etc. is a radio of any use? Does anyone monitor a channel and co-ordinate emergencies like MCA do at sea?

That's the sort of thing you would learn on the course - but sergeant thinks it is unnecessary - but will waste his money on a radio anyway.

Originally Posted by sergeant

If this course was a reasonable price and could be taken online, I would do it today - but this to me sounds more like a marine tax than a genuinely useful course, particularly if a 12yr old can pass.

There's a lot of 12 yr olds out there who are quite smart. Some would even be smart enough not to declare in public their intention to disregard the law! The course is not particularly challenging but there is usually a know-it-all there who wants to show how smart he, or how wrong the world/system is rather than learn anything which gives everyone else valuable entertainment.

I've made no secret of the fact that I think the course is poor and a chore. I am sure there are some instructors who are better than others. But anyone who thinks £70 for a day's training is outrageous is not in the real world.

[miccheck1516]

LOL!

It's unlikely that someone in a SIB (1m above the sea level) will need to relay anything to the coastguard for a ship.(10+m above sea level likely with MF comm set.)

Im suprised that they give you a script when you do the course, i'd have thought at the very least, they would have you be able to call out a mayday or pan pan from memory.

oh look, you can get the (not so exclusive) script on google

This Mayday card is for you to download and modify


MIPNANO is good to remember;

M- Mayday
I - Identification
P - Position
N - Nature of problem
A - Assistance reqd
N - Number of POB
O - Other (weather, intentions, LSA carried)

[miccheck1516]

Originally Posted by Poly

That's the sort of thing you would learn on the course

Or the slipway, or the local boat shop, or the yacht cub, or the pub.

If you have to pay 70quid to find out what channel the coastguard or local rescue organisation listen on something is very wrong.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by miccheck1516

MIPNANO is good to remember;

M- Mayday
I - Identification
P - Position
N - Nature of problem
A - Assistance reqd
N - Number of POB
O - Other (weather, intentions, LSA carried)

Is it... Oh my boat is sinking or on fire... ...what's the silly Mnemonic? Its about as useful as knowing that the causes of unconsciousness spell FISHSHAPED - these things are good for learning to pass exams but realistically not much use when the shit is hitting the fan and you need to deal with it.

[miccheck1516]

Originally Posted by Poly

Is it... Oh my boat is sinking or on fire... ...what's the silly Mnemonic? Its about as useful as knowing that the causes of unconsciousness spell FISHSHAPED - these things are good for learning to pass exams but realistically not much use when the shit is hitting the fan and you need to deal with it.

OK, i'll let them know that down at the MCA training centre when im over again in two weeks.

Im sure finding out you think it's 'silly' will make them re-train the entire coastguard and re-design all future training.



Mnemonics are actually a VERY useful tool precisely when shit is hitting the fan, why else are they used extensively in the military and in first aid courses?

[tonto]

Originally Posted by miccheck1516

LOL!

It's unlikely that someone in a SIB (1m above the sea level) will need to relay anything to the coastguard for a ship.(10+m above sea level likely with MF comm set.)

Im suprised that they give you a script when you do the course, i'd have thought at the very least, they would have you be able to call out a mayday or pan pan from memory.

oh look, you can get the (not so exclusive) script on google

This Mayday card is for you to download and modify


MIPNANO is good to remember;

M- Mayday
I - Identification
P - Position
N - Nature of problem
A - Assistance reqd
N - Number of POB
O - Other (weather, intentions, LSA carried)

Its amazing what you forget when you are in an emergency.
We have very well trained officers on my ship, who use the VHF and radio every day, yet we still have the card printed out next to the VHF, and GMDSS stations in case of an emergency, so that they can go through step by step what to do.

Pilots on aircraft do the same, and they fly the things every day, and do intensive training every few months, but they still use checklists, and cards to follow in the event of an emergency.

Oh and training is ongoing, constantly, and repetitively, and still in times of high stress things can still be forgotten.

I would rather go through the training a few times, refresher courses and drills, than to read something on a computer once and (foolishly) consider myself an expert.

One of the other parts of our training is to understand human resources, and how people cope (or not, as is usual) in high stress situations, and one of the terms used is "information dump" where after a certain amount of stress and information your brain dumps massive amounts of info to the point that some people cannot recall their own name.
Drills and training are one way to help over come these things.

All I can hope is that others dont need to rely on you remembering all those acronims in an emergency

[Dhf]

Originally Posted by miccheck1516

LOL!

It's unlikely that someone in a SIB (1m above the sea level) will need to relay anything to the coastguard for a ship.(10+m above sea level likely with MF comm set.)

I think you got the wrong idea, from that other post.

It is very likely that a relay will be necessary if its the sib in trouble, and the ship relaying the message.

[IanH]

Originally Posted by miccheck1516

Or the slipway, or the local boat shop, or the yacht cub, or the pub.

You don't need the course to license a VHF radio. You do need to have a, or need to be under control of someone who does, certificate of competence to use one though. The certificate of competence obtained by passing the exam at the end. Tbh, I doubt you will get a bollocking if an non competent person uses a VHF in a genuine emergency, however I bet you will if you fuck up an emergency situation by not being competent in their use. If you think staying legal and benefiting from using VHF in other non emergency situations is worth the £30 exam fee is up to you.

What the course allows is the ability to use different VHF radios in different scenarios and you won't get large percentage of a days practice of doing that in the local boat shop, yacht club or pub. This improves your competence in a variety of different situations, may well save your or someone else's life and IMHO, is well worth the £70 course fee.

[tonto]

Originally Posted by miccheck1516

OK, i'll let them know that down at the MCA training centre when im over again in two weeks.

Im sure finding out you think it's 'silly' will make them re-train the entire coastguard and re-design all future training.



Mnemonics are actually a VERY useful tool precisely when shit is hitting the fan, why else are they used extensively in the military and in first aid courses?

Of all the many many hours I have spent in classrooms being trained to STCW standards at different colleges around the country, I cannot recall a single Mnemonic that has been taught to me, so maybe it doesnt work.

Repetitive training, and checklists are what military and civilian operators of vessels, aircraft etc use, I know cos thats what we use.

Of course there are always idiot sauvants who can recall massive lists of things, and other Mnenomics

[miccheck1516]

Originally Posted by tonto

Its amazing what you forget when you are in an emergency.
We have very well trained officers on my ship, who use the VHF and radio every day, yet we still have the card printed out next to the VHF, and GMDSS stations in case of an emergency, so that they can go through step by step what to do.

Pilots on aircraft do the same, and they fly the things every day, and do intensive training every few months, but they still use checklists, and cards to follow in the event of an emergency.

Oh and training is ongoing, constantly, and repetitively, and still in times of high stress things can still be forgotten.

I would rather go through the training a few times, refresher courses and drills, than to read something on a computer once and (foolishly) consider myself an expert.

One of the other parts of our training is to understand human resources, and how people cope (or not, as is usual) in high stress situations, and one of the terms used is "information dump" where after a certain amount of stress and information your brain dumps massive amounts of info to the point that some people cannot recall their own name.
Drills and training are one way to help over come these things.

All I can hope is that others dont need to rely on you remembering all those acronims in an emergency

You obviously missed my earlier post where I said practise and experiance were important, but that's cool I appreciate you have come into the discussion late.However your post reads as if you missed the fact that I actually linked the guy to one of those mayday cards before giving him 'all those acronyms' (I only count one?)

At least ive given the guy something to work with, rather than telling him if he wants to dare look at a VHF radio he absoutley must have spent 70quid on a piece of paper saying he knows how to use it.

My comment

Or the slipway, or the local boat shop, or the yacht cub, or the pub.

Was in referance to the person who suggested a VHF course is where you would find out about what frequencies CG/rescue listen to on inland waterways... not about 'differant parts'??(I assume you mean in terms of the course/lisence, I think the OP allready stated that he can't find anyone willing to provide the lisence or bare exam, without prior training at a total cost of 70pounds)

[miccheck1516]

for those whose head is too far up one's rear to look at my first post in this thread and get a grip of the entire conversation, here it is again, with the relavent part highlighted.

Originally Posted by miccheck1516

Alot of talk about needing a licence, not sure if it's due to my location,but before I bothered doing any formal courses it was never a problem.

Indeed, a course would help improve your confidence, and you would know what to say, but you can find out what to say in a RYA book/SMCP manual, and confidence is built by practise and experiance.

I think it's more importan to carry a VHF wthout a licence than not carry a VHF because you don't have a licence.

I am not suggesting that anyone is a know it all after reading a book, or memorising a mnemonic, but simply that it's more important for this dude to have a VHF with him without a lisence, than it is for him to not carry one because he has no lisence.

Besides, a mnemonic is a check list when used as I have suggested...

[tonto]

Originally Posted by miccheck1516

for those whose head is too far up one's rear to look at my first post in this thread and get a grip of the entire conversation, here it is again, with the relavent part highlighted.



I am not suggesting that anyone is a know it all after reading a book, or memorising a mnemonic, but simply that it's more important for this dude to have a VHF with him without a lisence, than it is for him to not carry one because he has no lisence.

Besides, a mnemonic is a check list when used as I have suggested...

A Mnemonic as you suggested is NOT a checklist, A checklist is written down, and referred to when needed, items ticked or checked as done, not memorised.

And exactly how is this person to get the "Practice and experience" when he is legally not allowed to operate the radio??
Doing the course would give him the right to "practice" and get "experience", as well as getting both on the course.

[Max...]

Originally Posted by miccheck1516

for those whose head is too far up one's rear to look at my first post in this thread and get a grip of the entire conversation, here it is again, with the relavent part highlighted.



I am not suggesting that anyone is a know it all after reading a book, or memorising a mnemonic, but simply that it's more important for this dude to have a VHF with him without a lisence, than it is for him to not carry one because he has no lisence.

Besides, a mnemonic is a check list when used as I have suggested...

Probably much better though that the dude knows what a tide is, how to handle a boat, pick up a MOB, read the weather, check his LJ works, anchor in an emergency, be responsible for his passengers, know basic colregs, what that buoy signifies etc, etc, etc

Some odd (almost troll like) posts on here but glad others have been so pro doing the VHF course. I've said it a few times but the OP should sign up for the PB2 before he goes out in his new boat, let alone buys a VHF etc, judging from his posts he probably won't though. For so many people now you can learn it all from a book or the 'net and anyway someone else will always be happy to come and rescue you so why bother.

For me the three days spent on the two courses coached by the local RNLI boys were immensely rewarding, informative and enjoyable.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by miccheck1516

OK, i'll let them know that down at the MCA training centre when im over again in two weeks.

Im sure finding out you think it's 'silly' will make them re-train the entire coastguard and re-design all future training.



Mnemonics are actually a VERY useful tool precisely when shit is hitting the fan, why else are they used extensively in the military and in first aid courses?

They are used extensively in first aid courses because they are a quick way to train people to pass exams. Being able to list the causes of unconsciousness, or the signs and symptoms of fractures (LIP DUST / PLASTICS) or the numerous other ones doesn't actually mean you are able to recognise the conditions.

There are times when mnemonics can be useful. These are generally when doing things in the right order matters. e.g. DR.ABC or where the exact words you use matter. Good mnemonics spell real words. There is no reason why MIPDANIO (note that on my course it was taught as "Information" and "Over" at the end) is actually fundamentally any better than:

Status (e.g. Mayday / Pan Pan)
Call Sign
Location
Issue you are having
People on board
Help requested
Additional info
Over

And in reality neither is particularly easy to remember exactly what each letter stands for - when what really matters is you clearly communicate who, where, what. A clear, well spoken MAYDAY with things in a non standard order or even some details missing is much better than a rushed or mumbled list in 'official order'.

In my opinion most mnemonics are tricks used by lazy trainers.

[ShinyShoe]

For those who are interested come 2014 you will be able to take the course on-line. You wont be able to sit the exam online or I could sit it for you and fill in your details.

For those who doubted you could get experience using a radio on line there are online simulators. Yes they aren't quite like the real thing but they aren't a mile away. Add a sound card, microphone and a speaker and things starte to be closer to real. Then add a muffled message played to you and you may well be very like real world. You can be played an incoming DSC Alert and have to wait and see if it is acknowledged and when not raise your own DSC Pan Pan (one of the wierdnesses that you learn on the course) in order to transmit a Mayday Relay since non commercial DSCs dont allow Mayday relaying.

From 2014 it appears the teacher and the examiner will be seperate people.

[ShinyShoe]

Originally Posted by rossymtb

But to put peoples mind at risk I always carry inside my dry bag
Vhf
Mobile
Flares
Tools
Repair kit

Unless your dry bag is attached to you you need to think how you'll get help if you go for a wee accidental swim and can't get back to the boat... I'd suggest VHF needs to be ON YOU in a pocket so it doesn't get destroyed on impact.

[miccheck1516]

Originally Posted by Max...

Probably much better though that the dude knows what a tide is, how to handle a boat, pick up a MOB, read the weather, check his LJ works, anchor in an emergency, be responsible for his passengers, know basic colregs, what that buoy signifies etc, etc, etc

Im not suggesting he shouldn't know any of that, just that he doesn't have to pay for it...

I don't recall saying he shouldn't get the lisence, only that he shouldn't let the absence of one stop him using his radio.

I have done the PB2 course and I guess an equivalent of the RYA VHf one, so im not against them by any means, Im just not into saying you must have x y or z before steping foot in a boat, get out there and enjoy it safely...