Radar reflector small RIB

[lakelandterrier]

I know this has been discussed in the past, but not for a while, and can bring out the odd strong view but....to maintain legal compliance I fel I should fit a radar reflector to my 4m Avon. It is used for estuary and inshore family trips, not fast coastal / off-shore stuff. In principle I agree that anything that helps your boat be seen is good, but I'm not convinced on the absolute need for small craft. That aside, if I can fit something that is practical and doesn't interfere with oyher things (e.g the more useful nav lights) I think I ought to consider it.

The A-frame is sing 35m tubing with the nav light mounted on top and I don't want to play around with the welded mount or mount the reflactor next to it fro obvious reasons.

What is there in the market that can be easily but securely mounted without obstructing the all round nav light and won't look out of place on a small RIB & A-Frame?

I understand the cheap cylinder types can be simply attached with cable ties, but are not that effective, but is that all that could practically be mounted?

I think the reflector would need to be clamped at the top of the A-frame vertical, not on the horizontal.

Without wanting to re-start the debate on whether all craft should legally be fitted with radar reflectors I'd appreciate some views and what works / doesn't.

LT

[MikeCC]

Take a look at either the Echomax or Tri-Lens radar reflectors, unless you want to spend £450+ on the Sea-Me active antenna.

There is a basemount Echomax 230, but not for the smaller 180 model yet (only mast mount, but you might be able to get something made up).
There is a version with an all-round white that might be useful depending on your existing setup. Note the newer 'extreme' version for 15kts+ use.

The Tri-Lens has 2 sizes you might consider - standard and mini.

Only the large size Echomax and Tri-Lens units actually fulfil the ISO8729 standard but they will probably be too big for you (but one could argue the smaller the boat, the larger the reflector needed).

Either type needs to be mounted clear of obstructions, such as bits of the A-frame, to avoid shadowing.

If you do a Google search for 'radar reflector tests', you'll find various MAIB and QinetiQ performance reports. For a planing boat, you can ignore any negative comments about effectiveness when heeled over - hopefully you won't be! Some of the tests are quite dated and product specs may have changed. Here's the one following the Ouzo incident

As always, there's no substitute for keeping a good watch and knowing what's going on around you.

[codprawn]

The tri lens has to be the best for a RIB - looks a lot better than having a dustbin on your roof!!! Much more compact and looks cool..........

[Cookee]

I appreciate you don't want to start a debate, but where did you see that you are legally obliged to fit a reflector?

[Bern Hanreck]

This was one " official " piece of advise , which does however use the phrase
" if practicable "...

http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/solas.pdf

[MikeCC]

Originally Posted by Bern Hanreck

This was one " official " piece of advise , which does however use the phrase
" if practicable "...

http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/solas.pdf

That's the one. While I would be delighted if it was a legal requirement (and lifejackets, VHF radios, PLBs etc etc ), I believe it is only an advisory. After all, if you just potter about on the upper reaches of a river, it would be a bit pointless.

[lakelandterrier]

AS far as "practicable" is concerned, I can see the MCA arguing that is not impractical to fit an-A-frame or pole mast to a rib, and if you have one of these, then it is not not practicable to fit a radar reflector if you venture into tidal waters. You know what the authorities are like for fining people for the easy things they can.

[m chappelow]

as you said earlier on , best not to get into which reflector is the best one ,though many of the small long thin tube types may be up to standards and approval but what conditions were they tested at , bit different in a lab test or ideal conditions to get the product through the test, different when your bobbing about in a lumpy sea at 3o knots ,as regards the legal side of things the RNLI d class sibs dont carry them and they can operate at night . any how radar is only as good as the operater thats why ships still crash into each other even when fitted with radar , you cant beat a good look out at all times .

[wavelength]

from memory, cos I'm not at home, SOLAS V regs require three things for UK vessels if proceeding to sea
1) a table of lifesaving signals
2) a passage plan
3) a radar reflector (if practical to fit)

If you have an A frame I doubt you can argue that it is impractical. From experience of delivering fast commercial boats across the channel small boats can be virtually invisible on the radar. We have been alongside and had a chat with a Dutch 6m fast fishing cruiser miles out from shore when crossing to the Netherlands and he never showed on our radar, and had no radar reflector. We saw him visually only as we came in to have a look at a wreck mark we fancied fishing for an hour. The phrase "that B******s on our wreck" was substituted for ship ahoy!
The phrase "when proceeding to sea" is critical and I believe has been taken to mean when leaving categorised waters so you wouldnt need one "pottering about" up rivers- but of course only a court can ......etc
I know our ribs show on a local RoRo vessels radar cos we have talked with him by vhf when operating in fog and he told us he could see two blips at our position-now whether thats from the engines or the reflectors maybe another matter altogether

[codprawn]

Where practical is pretty ambiguous

Is it practical to fit smaller reflectors such as the tube type that are next to useless?

Also they have to be mounted in the correct position - if there is something like a light or whatever on top of the A frame is there any point in mounting them at an angle?

[Poly]

phrase "when proceeding to sea" is critical and I believe has been taken to mean when leaving categorised waters so you wouldnt need one "pottering about" up rivers- but of course only a court can ......etc

I think the courts did make a judgement on this issue of whether a boat was "going to sea" or simply "on the sea" in the case of the the jetski collision that the MCA tried to prosecute under the merchant shipping act.

If I recall correctly the court of appeal said that the jetski was not "going to sea" even althout it was on the sea and that going to sea was interpretted to mean making a voyage from place to place or something to that effect.

[wavelength]

wasn't that a question of was the pwc a vessel because it didnt do journeys fro A to B but instead always returned to point A and therefore did not come under the merchant shipping defn. These are different regs. I asked the RYA the question re reflectors because of centre inspections- and had the reply re cat waters.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by wavelength

wasn't that a question of was the pwc a vessel because it didnt do journeys fro A to B but instead always returned to point A and therefore did not come under the merchant shipping defn. These are different regs. I asked the RYA the question re reflectors because of centre inspections- and had the reply re cat waters.

I thought the question was whether it was a sea going vessel? I'll see if google can help...

[EDIT: ...and it does... http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...9/ai_n15922611 in brief - we are both right the appeal was based on both the question of if it were a ship (which it was not, as it was not used for navigation) and if so were it a sea-going ship (which is was not as it was not used to "set out to sea on a voyage"). Actually there was no dispute that it was a vessel.]

[EDIT2: and your/the RYA definition of sea going - is consistent with the HMRC definition for tax purposes: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/ttmmanual/ttm03530.htm]

[lakelandterrier]

Wow, I thought this might start a debate!

Coming back to my starting point, as a 4m RIB with an A-frame operating in inshore waters should I (or should I legally) fit a radar reflector, and if so what's the best (at lowest cost)?

At present my confusion is as great as when I posed the original question!

confused & befuddled Terrier!

[codprawn]

Nah don't bother!!!

[willk]

A bloke wot I know...
... is presently a Coastie, but previously drove safety/supply boats in the North Sea. He doesn't bother with reflectors on his rib, because he didn't find they made much difference to the RADAR signature of his daughter boats. When doing pickups in the grey, he used to make them trip a SART - he saw that!

The few reports I've read seem to suggest they don't work in a real environment, especially the small plastic rod type.

Legally, not my jurisdiction.

[Limey Linda]

Suggest you tie a pair of really soiled skivvys to the top of your VHF antenna.
Works great as long as you are up wind.

[Cookee]

Originally Posted by wavelength

from memory, cos I'm not at home, SOLAS V regs require three things for UK vessels if proceeding to sea
1) a table of lifesaving signals
2) a passage plan
3) a radar reflector (if practical to fit)

I think you'll find that Solas V regs are for comercial vessels, not some private chap going about his own business!

All of the stuff about going to sea and PWC's is not relevant at all - my advice for what it's worth is don't bother unless you're going to be embarking on voyages in shipping lanes or out at night or fog, and then it would be better to get some electronic protection as well!

[wavelength]

I think you'll find that Solas V regs are for comercial vessels, not some private chap going about his own business

dont think so.
Quote from back of MCA booklet on solas V :
On 1st july 2002 some new regulations came into force which directly affect you as a pleasure boat user. These regulations are part of chapter V of the International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea, otherwise known as SOLAS V. Most of the SOLAS convention only applies to large commercial ships, but parts of chapter V apply to small privately owned pleasure craft. Regulations described in this leaflet apply to you.
According to the RYA they got the original list wittled down to these three requirements whilst some countries have a list which is much longer. Certainly when boating abroad on clients vessels we have been approached by the coastguards of various countries, some of whom have been great whilst certain others have been all guns and attitude, with a checklist as long as your arm. Mind you they are usually more interested in the owner having paid the local Taxes. (something like £15 per hp per year in Turkey )

[wavelength]

All of the stuff about going to sea and PWC's is not relevant at all

well fair enuff if thats what ya reckon -but that is based on advice by rya legal when questioning them re the requirements for various boats encountered during training centre inspections.
Like many regs, particularly with the virtually nil level of enforcement around the uk it will probably never be a problem until the crap hits the fan when someone gets hurt. Then its just one of those charges for the prosecution to throw in cos its likely to get a result and mitigate costs, no matter what happens to the main charge! I have cheap tubular reflectors, I doubt they do any more to our visibility than the lump of engine that is there, but they dont take up much room, they didnt cost the earth and I'm covering m'back just in case.