Hypothetically speaking....

Stoo · 20 January 2007, 15:34

I know that this should be in the engine forum, but I think I'll get a more useful answer here!

Part of my mission at the Toronto Boat Show was to start to consider re-powering my Hurricane. Currently, I have a 10 year old Yamaha 150 (V6). It's been a terrific engine, 99% of the time. But, in 10 years, I have blown 2 heads in spite of regular maintenance, always using Yamaha oil etc.

Even though the engine is 10 years old, the powerhead was replaced last season, and only has about 20 hours on it. My reason for repowering is primarily for fuel economy/less environmental impact...

So, what I would like your expert opinions on is this: What would you say that my old engine should be worth as a trade in or sale? I figure that on the upside, the head is new, the engine is "pristine", the skeg is unscratched, and I am ridiculously handsome (which should get me a higher price...

) On the downside, everything but the head is 10 years old, the engine is extra-long shaft, and a gas pig.

Talking to dealers at the show, none would offer an opinion whithout seeing the engine. The guy who replaced the head last year said if I traded it in, I would be lucky to get the cost of the repair out of it ($8000)

With new engines running in the $18 - $20 K range, there's a pretty good spread (I can buy a lot of fuel for $10-12K!)

As for a replacement... who knows! The boat dealer loves Yammies, but I just don't think it's reasonable to blow a head every few years! My local marine repair guy is a Merc dealer.... Your thoughts on new engines would be appreciated too...

I appreciate your opinons!

Aidan · 20 January 2007, 16:17

Hi SToo,

Ok, if someone gives ou 8000 for it, take the arm and all off them.
Meanwhile, you could consider it a weapon of mass destruction....
especially with the juice it burns. If I had to two heads on any engine over 10 years, I would be most pissed off with it. what a crock...
get rid of it. Keep and eye on the ETEC posting

Hightower · 20 January 2007, 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoo

Even though the engine is 10 years old, the powerhead was replaced last season, and only has about 20 hours on it. My reason for repowering is primarily for fuel economy/less environmental impact...

I appreciate your opinons!

Should you really be selling it if you want to be kind to the environment?

OceanEco · 20 January 2007, 17:22

The most that engine would fetch out this way would be about $4000 if you were lucky. I would sugggest the suzuki df150. I just picked up a new suzuki df 140 for $12,000cdn guages prop + spare prop taxes in. Good luck and if you can get $8000 for it go for it!!!

Aidan · 20 January 2007, 20:34

Hi Oceaneco,

what size rib are you putting the DF140 on.
I am most interested to hear how people get on with and with what prop including Revs and speed and Fuel consumption.

I will have the Johnson 140 on 6.5 mtr, it should be big enough, not sure right prop size is on it, i didntget it yet.

Aidan · 20 January 2007, 20:43

[QUOTE=Stoo;182910]
Even though the engine is 10 years old, the powerhead was replaced last season, and only has about 20 hours on it. My reason for repowering is primarily for fuel economy/less environmental impact...

I would say the 4000 mark is right given that it will go via trade. You have already used two heads (as in two heads are better than one,, NO)

I woudl say it will be used for parts, that is all I would let it out again for. However I do suppose that this is a "trade Value to the trade" and you can add a 12-15% discount off the price of the engine in competitive envirnoment which brings you up to 7K regardless of condition....

With regard to Envirnoment, forget about it unless you are prepared to SKIP it and then it would require a charge to do it envirnomentally, unless Yamaha are prepared to make lss parts as a result of it coming on parts stream.

Doesnt work dude, so just take your money and walk away. I hope your next engine gives you better service cos in my opinion unlss you have many miles on it and I mean many, as two strokes go it must have been a bag of shite.

No disrespect, I am well on your side, I just think you should up your expectation for all our sakes. By the way, I had a brand new Mercedes E270 five cyl diesel which was as bad. I got rid of the usless piece of junk at 37,000 miles, having changed everything in it. Its my last merc for a while!!!!
So you are not on your own and I am sensitive to your cause...
The ETEC should be much better.

Stoo · 20 January 2007, 21:27

[quote=Aidan;182934]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoo

I hope your next engine gives you better service cos in my opinion unlss you have many miles on it and I mean many, as two strokes go it must have been a bag of shite.

I hope so too Aidan! As a sidebar, one of the huge issues I have had with Yamaha each time the head blew was that they really didn't seem to think it was that big of a deal. Their "customer service" response was "Hmmm... that's odd... shouldn't have done that... you must have _ _ _ _" sort of thing. They did absolutley nothing to help me. In the past, I have not kept careful track of hours, but because I use the boat almost entirely for diving, I was able to reconstruct my useage fairly accurately from my dive logs. I forget the exact numbers, but it was something like 120 -150 hours per year. I tend to go to a site, anchor, dive and come back. It's not like the boat pulls waterskiers 6 hours a day...) So in either case, I would guess that the engine had maybe 600-700 hours on it when the heads went... While I don't baby the thing, I also don't drive the stuffing out of it by any stretch... and as I said, I maintain it professionally, use proper oil etc. I recall a couple of dealers telling me that these engines only have a life expectancy of "two or three thousand hours...".. something I find hard to believe. Have any of you heard estimates like that?

I have had a couple of PMs in response to this post... your responses are intersesting, and literally run from one extreme... "dump it" to drive it until it drops, then scrap it, because the new ones are "no better"... Maybe I should be looking at a sailboat!

Aidan · 20 January 2007, 23:30

[QUOTE=Stoo;182939]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aidan

I hope so too Aidan! As a sidebar, one of the huge issues I have had with Yamaha each time the head blew was that they really didn't seem to think it was that big of a deal. Their "customer service" response was "Hmmm... that's odd... shouldn't have done that... you must have _ _ _ _" sort of thing. They did absolutley nothing to help me. In the past, I have not kept careful track of hours, but because I use the boat almost entirely for diving, I was able to reconstruct my useage fairly accurately from my dive logs. I forget the exact numbers, but it was something like 120 -150 hours per year. I tend to go to a site, anchor, dive and come back. It's not like the boat pulls waterskiers 6 hours a day...) So in either case, I would guess that the engine had maybe 600-700 hours on it when the heads went... While I don't baby the thing, I also don't drive the stuffing out of it by any stretch... and as I said, I maintain it professionally, use proper oil etc. I recall a couple of dealers telling me that these engines only have a life expectancy of "two or three thousand hours...".. something I find hard to believe. Have any of you heard estimates like that?

Maybe I should be looking at a sailboat!

Sailboat always better dude, and much cheaper to use, more fun in getting there and swell is no problem, overfalls and all....

Meanwhile, if you take the upper end of 700 hours and average 20kts (I sai average....)= 14000 NM and using a ration of .5 for equalising the revs from boat engine to car as in 5k revs to 2.5 k revs or whatever (its only rough guide) =28,000 nm miles and ratio of NM to miles is 1.2 = add 20% = 34k miles and you have to change the head????????

It must be a rebadged Mercedes E 270 (new model), I ended up changing the car....

I think you should write to MD of Yamaha Europe advising that we are all waiting on he outcome here on he forum??????

I would be very dissapointed to the point of not buying another Mercedes for a few Years

Ease up you Mech heads, its only a rough guide!

OceanEco · 21 January 2007, 00:03

1000 hours on a new head for a yammy 2 stroke is about normal although I have seen as low as 500 hours.

Aidan:

I am running twin DF 140s on a 6.4m Zodiac hurricane.

With a full load(12 passengers + 2 crew) I cruise at 34 knots and top speed is 42 knots. I recently re pitched and I can't remember what I am running right now. I will check it out tomorrow and let you know.

Aidan · 21 January 2007, 00:14

Thanks Oceaneco,
I was getting a bit aroused there until I saw that you have in fact two engines...
Ah well, I will just have to trade it in for the new Suzuki 300 and add some floatation to the stern!!!!!

Only Joking guys, 200 will do, lets burn some juice!!!!

Poly · 21 January 2007, 01:25

aidan, I wish you would learn to leave in (or put back in after deleting text) the [/quote] "tag" at the end of the message you are quoting - its bloody hard work after two bottles of wine working out which bits you wrote and which bits are the original message.

Aidan · 21 January 2007, 13:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polwart

aidan, I wish you would learn to leave in (or put back in after deleting text) the

"tag" at the end of the message you are quoting - its bloody hard work after two bottles of wine working out which bits you wrote and which bits are the original message.

[/QUOTE]

WIll do Polwart, mind you it took some time even figuring out your request, I am in learn mode with most of this... I just was trying to refer to some of thread but on reflection, I will do my best......
Meanwhile, who or where do you get the little smiling faces etc...

prairie tuber · 21 January 2007, 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aidan

Meanwhile, who or where do you get the little smiling faces etc...

You have to buy them from JK.

Aidan · 21 January 2007, 15:17

Thanks PT, will investigate, going to movies now!!

Stoo · 21 January 2007, 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aidan

I think you should write to MD of Yamaha Europe advising that we are all waiting on he outcome here on he forum??????

This all happened over here in the Colonies Aidan, but I do have a pretty thick file from Yamaha Canada. Their responses baffled even the dealer (who, I should point out, was very helpful. The first powerhead that blew, he sold to me at his cost, and installed it for nothing as it was about 45 days past the warranty expiration).

Yamaha sent a factory mechanic in to examine the first one, and pronounced that the cylinder that failed had corrosion inside: "probable cause was failure to winterize properly, causing condensation". Ummm, doubt it... done by a different dealer, receipt provided. Yamaha's response to this was to ask if I had "retorqued the head bolts during break-in". WTF? Dealer new nothing of that. Nothing in the owners manual. Nothing in the service manual. Apparently, there was a "directive" issued somewhere along the way.

When the second one went, the mechanic (a Merc dealer) felt that the probable cause was a sticky check valve in the oil-injection line which either reduced oil flow or possible drained when the engine was off, causing a delay in lubrication to begin each time I started. Since this was a replacement head, it had come with a 30 day warranty (!) and so I didn't waste the effort talking to Yamaha.

I will say again, that otherwise the engine ran beautifully right up until the point(s) that went "bang/clang/stop"...!

pathalla · 22 January 2007, 03:26

Stoo, checkout the Boat trader. If you pick up a copy of the Florida boat trader they usually have some new old stock outboards at good prices, sales volume in Florida and all that. You should be able to get a crated motor shipped to you for a reasonable amount. A link to look at, fun to look even if you are not in the market... http://www.boattraderonline.com/engpartsearch.html
I won't recommend a motor for you, I have had good luck with Yamaha but you haven't, Mercury or Yamaha for parts or service supposedly...

pathalla · 22 January 2007, 04:07

this looks pretty good..
http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/3/8/86493738.htm
If you stay with a Yamaha outboard you could use your prop and controls, one advantage of keeping the same brand anyhow.

Aidan · 22 January 2007, 23:17

Ok Stoo, now that you seem to have gone the extra mile, and you understand all the crap you ned to including Retorquing down the head. This is always done in the first service by the dealer. It is not really necessary but can blow the head gasket (never heard of it happening, ever!) and the dealer should have done it.
Regardless, there must be an engineering shop that you can trust to redo the lot for you. I feel it owes you a few years of good service.

Otherwise do not buy another Yamaha, you owe it to yourself.
So if on budget, go Yam if going new, You have to look at the ETEC (no valves and all that crap)

I had a SAAB which was brilliant but I blew the engine man system outside waranty. I decided to get it done and to get my money back, I kept the car an extra year which was trouble free and I ended up with fond memories.

Biggles · 22 January 2007, 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aidan

I had a SAAB which was brilliant but I blew the engine man system outside waranty. I decided to get it done and to get my money back, I kept the car an extra year which was trouble free and I ended up with fond memories.

How do you blow a SAAB up in Ireland ? Prey tell.

pathalla · 23 January 2007, 14:12

Hey Stoo, here's one for you, a brand new 1999 150 hp Merc some dealer in Michigan has, not too far from you http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/4/4/86973444.htm
$6000 for a new buck fifty, not bad if you don't mind that it is a 99.