Willard 7m seaforse repower.

[skidoodog]

Boat now dropped off Hindson Marine in Penatanguishene , Volvo dealer for rigging. A very friendly place with good service. They will supply and install all those very expensive wiring harnesses and magic electrical boxes that will bring the D6 to life. More pics to come when this is done.

I will help myself to a triple scotch before i open the invoice.

Dave

[skidoodog]

Started up yesterday. A few codes to clear, all good.
Its quiet....at least quiet at idle. Much more so than the straight out pipe from the Cummins. Also minus the mechanical rattle that goes along with 12 valve engines.


Now i have a transmition problem, not good. Went into gear spat out a bunch of oil then didn't come out of gear and no reverse. Argh. Its rigged right. Its an internal problem. So its gotta come out to be looked at. I would have drank the bilge water in this boat. It was that clean. Not anymore. It will take hours to clean up properly. I don't like any oil in my bilge, any.

That is a bummer. I'm beginning to think I will be taking my first ride in this boat wearing full on snowmobile gear.

I will try to figure out how to post a video. Any tips on how to attach a video clip would be appreciated. Thanks all.

[clloyd]

Attach video clip by uploading to youtube first and then posting the link...

Ok so I'm a bit foggy on this but I believe your transmission is very sensitive to oil level and especially overfilling. ie, you really need to get it right. If it spat out oil, that is a sign.

I would find a way to suck excess oil out and lookup the correct fill level.

It would be better to actually start out a tad low and verify shift etc and then fill to correct level.

It might be a bit congested...ie. too much oil to operate properly.

[skidoodog]

Hi Chris,

I appreciate your comment.

I know you are familiar with this transmition. If i remember right you went for a Bam 1350(a beefed up 72c). Maybe i should have. I had some reputable guys up north here build me their version of the same thing. There is a big cigarette boat crowd up here in Orillia on lake Simcoe. There are many serious high horse powerboats and many use beefed up velvet drives. These guys build for them and they work.

It wasn't overfilled. The mechanic was aware of the sensitivity to fluid level. It was filled to the middle of the operating level. At this point the neither the cooler or any of the cooler lines were filled. If anything at that point it was under filled.The level was checked again and it was just showing on the stick.

Something is up internally. When I spoke to the builder he said hmmm. As if he had an idea what was up. The clutch pack has locked up for some reason.
It also loaded the engine when shifted into reverse but was still in forward gear. As if it was in forward and reverse at the same time. We shut it down.

The transition builder has agreed to make it right. So that's good at least.

[skidoodog]

short video of boat running in the water for the first time. We soon found out the transmition was messed up. Belt noise will will be gone with a new belt. I decided to put the second alternator on it for redundancy.
hopefully there will be more once the transmition is sorted out. The season is fast coming to a close here. Once it goes below freezing at night seasons over. I have another 3 or 4 weeks.....

My first video posting ever.....it can only get better

https://youtu.be/-EaQ05Gv37c

[skidoodog]

Ok....My video skills have not improved. Im gonna blame the weather. This is about as late in the season as you can push it in these parts. We have had recent significant snow, now melted thankfully. It was 4 degrees C here today and varied from pelting heavy rain to a fine mist...Argh

But the boat was ready for pick up and towing home in sub zero temperatures is a very bad idea. I had to proceed with the sea trial and get moving. I will post a poor quality video...again. It was raining a lot. My phone is old and waterproofing is questionable. I did what I could. Lake conditions were thankfully calm in the bay.

Repaired transmition also is in. A not fully seated large C clip was the culprit and broke off causing trauma to the internals. Now fully rebuilt and working well...so far.

Acceleration is "interesting" in a good way. from 0 to 3o kts in less than 4 seconds or less with our light load. 40 kts top speed so far with no prop change. Best of all quiet. I can now converse with the person beside me without risking my hearing or vocal cord damage at normal cruise speeds.

https://youtu.be/9ka0RY-zn9Q

More fuel capacity to be engineered in over the winter. The ability to significantly change fuel flow is now just a flick of the wrist away. I did see 85 liters per hour briefly.

Cruise at 2100 rpm, 21 kts was 23 liters per hour. Nice.

I cant wait for spring now.

Stay covid safe everyone.

Cheers, Dave

[skidoodog]

above is a dead link maybe this will work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ka0RY-zn9Q

[jwalker]

Cool, it's a good feeling when it all comes together.

I'm guessing your 85lts/hour was at full throttle 40kts. That ties in nicely with 23lts at 21kts and the theory of using about 4 times the power at twice the speed. Kinda indicates too that the engine is good.

Edit: First link worked ok for me.

[skidoodog]

Thanks jwalker. Can I turn the image 90 degrees ? its irritating to watch as is.

Your fuel flow analysis is exactly correct. 85l/h was wide open throttle. It was in fact over revving at 3650. we throttled back. to 3500 and 71 l/h i did not note the speed due to pelting rain. We were under dressed, fully moistened, and heading in. There was no forecast of rain and we were hoping it would stop.

Prior to more testing: a ramble.

My line pressure and temperature sensor for the transmition has not arrived yet but will be installed prior to more testing. That will let me keep an eye on things.
I will try a 23 inch stainless prop that I have now in the spring. Testing today was 21inch aluminum. mercury prop.

Does anyone know of a practical way to measure torque on a drive shaft in a small boat? I would love to be able to do that. I still feel the transmition is the week link and would love to see what is going on.

Re installation of the big windshield and T top will change everything again for testing.

Top speed while fun is actually not my goal. I'm looking for a solid 30 knot cruising speed with occasional bursts higher.

All in good fun.

DA

[skidoodog]

Thanks jwalker. Can I turn the image 90 degrees ? its irritating to watch as is.

Your fuel flow analysis is exactly correct. 85l/h was wide open throttle. It was in fact over revving at 3650. we throttled back. to 3500 and 71 l/h I did not note the speed due to pelting rain. We were under dressed, fully moistened, and heading in. There was no forecast of rain.


Prior to more testing: a ramble.

As I reread my previous and now none editable comment about acceleration. 4 seconds might have been an exaggeration and a product of my excitement. Put it this way, it accelerates quickly, the supper charger is engaged for a very few seconds before cutting out and you have to hang on. I will take more careful notes and bring a stop watch to the next hopefully warm and dry test session.


My line pressure and temperature sensor for the transmition has not arrived yet but will be installed prior to more testing. That will let me keep an eye on things.
I will try a 23 inch stainless prop that I have now in the spring. Testing today was 21 inch aluminum bravo 2 sport series mercury prop.

Does anyone know of a practical way to measure torque on a drive shaft in a small boat? I would love to be able to do that. I still feel the transmition is the week link and would love to see what is going on.

Re installation of the big windshield and T top will change everything again for testing.

Top speed while fun is actually not my goal. I'm looking for a solid 30 knot cruising speed with occasional bursts higher.

All in good fun. Hope you enjoyed the story.

DA

[skidoodog]

So started working on the willard tank a few weeks ago and am making slow progress. The first challenge was removal. No problem removing fittings and pipes connecting to the tank. Everything was in good shape and corrosion free.
The problem began with the very large philips headed bolts that hold the fuel tank down. These large fasteners are screwed into stainless deck inserts glassed into the hull structure. An impact driver and penetrating oil is an obvious starting point. Well it took a few days and some serious trial and error to get these out. The cheep Chinese impact driver did not even budge them. The better quality lisle impact driver did not budge them but I did manage to shatter 2 number 4 Philips bits trying. So i got serious and I highly recommend this expensive tool. Snap on P120 impact driver and a 4 pound sledge got them to move. I cant believe the heads did not break off these bolts. They came off mostly without any deformation. Holy cow....they were tight. It took a couple of days for me to get 24 of these out. Pausing to let penetrating oil soak in.
The tank was not as stuck in place as i would have thought. It was not set into a bed of sealant as I thought it would be. Just a bede of sealant around the outside. It pried up fairly easily.

The plan was to see how much room was under the tank and extend it downward. Looks like i can safely extend it 7 inches. That will add 29 gallons for a total of 64. No great but better than 35 in the tiny stock tank.

Once the tank was cut i found something alarming. I was poking around in the small amount of debris in the back bottom of the tank and my small screwdriver poked right threw the bottom of the tank. Not good. If you have a Willard i strongly recommend you have a look at your tank. You can easily see and feel this area threw the access plate in the top of the tank. My boat is a 2001 so its not that old. I attached a pic of the hole after I pushed an awl threw the hole. A tank load of diesel in your bilge will ruin your whole day. Im glad I found this.

We tacked the tank together to double check the fit, All good. Now need to extend the pick up, return and stripping tube and were good. Lots of welding to do in the next few days. Cheers

[skidoodog]

We finally go some good weather last week sunny and 20 so got the welding done. You just don't want to weld in an enclosed unventilated space. Shop door was open
Forecast is fantastic for tomorrow in Port Credit. 23 and sunny. It will be more enjoyable than that hellish test day in November.

The T top is on and the big windshield installed. Also the 9.9 get home motor. Also the usual tool box, anchor and a hundred other things. Un like the fall test I am at my normal running weight. I will put in 130 liters tomorrow. That was full with old tank, 35 usg.

I also could not help myself. I had to put on the 17 x 21 cupped stainless prop and will carry the aluminum 18 x 21 as a spare for now. Lake Ontario is for the most part rock free and easy to navigate Unlike Georgian bay that is full of rocks, not all charted. I feel fine running a stainless prop when the risk of a rock strike is low.

We shall see what happens tomorrow. I will make a few notes.

[jwalker]

Good trick on the tank build leaving it open for access then wrapping it.

Be sure to come back and tell us how it performed.

[skidoodog]

Monday was test day.

I'm just old enough to have been exposed to imperial and metric measure. Canada switched to metric in the mid seventies so I use both interchangeably. It irritates my children who are fully metric.

Lake ontario out front of Port Credit was like a mill pond. Flat water. air temp 14 (58F) , water temp 8 (47F). Lake Ontario is 75 m (245 ft) above sea level. SE wind at 6 mph.

Fired the boat up before I left home. I hate disappointment at the launch ramp so pre test is key. It fired right up after its winter nap. I still have not dealt with the belt or idler squeal. It's a slightly annoying noise... All was good, no fluid leaks detected.

My mission was to go to Toronto and back if things were looking good. It only 8 miles east so just a short shake down. Ontario is covid locked down so I could not go downtown for a burgher and a beer at my favorite marina. That will have to wait a bit. Nice harbour tour though.

First results:

As mentioned previously the boat is overall noticeably quieter.
I did uncovered an unsettling handling qwirk that will have to be addressed. I will talk about that later.

As before the boat crabs slightly to the left when at speed. Its subtle but increases in a linear way from just planing to max speed. That's normal for a big single. Its only a degree or two but does look slightly odd.

Top speed is maybe 1/2 knot faster than in November at 40.5 knots. I would call it the same, the fuel flow settled a little lower at 75 l /h. More Efficient prop maybe ?
The rpm at max knots is bouncing off the governor at 3650 rpm. Its obvious I have the power to swing more prop pitch, but do I want to...

These are the few readings I noted. I will do a full chart at 250 rpm increments sometime soon.

1000 rpm 4.1 l/h 5.5 knots
2500 rpm 33 l/h 27 knots
3000 rpm 45 l/h 32.4 knots
3650 rpm 75l/h 40.5 knots

As mentioned before the acceleration is jaw dropping. I will try to get data but its hard to run a stop watch when you need two hands to hang on...


The handling qwirk is this. We settled at a slow cruise of 2000 rpm then pushed the throttle down smartly. The supper charger clutch engages instantly with a growl, the whole boat instantly rolls 15 degrees to the right (left turning prop) and begins a rate one turn to the right as it is accelerating like a banshee. (about 3 degrees per second turn).
To counter you need an equally instant quarter turn of the wheel to the left on a very stiff steering wheel due to the high teering load.
The first time this happened I was a little alarmed. A sudden but understandable reduction in throttle causes the almost identical opposite reaction. The boat rolls suddenly from 15 degrees right to about 10 degrees left and starts a slight more subtle turn to the left. The whole boat is being torqued around the prop shaft...

This all must happen from a standing start but you have more time to steer and adjust.

This is a recipe to get ejected from the boat if you are not careful.

I did ask myself briefly if I had gone too far with the power....

I don't remember this phenomenon with the aluminum prop that I had on the boat in November. We were so distracted by the cold and rain I don't remember testing the boat in this way. In any case my starting point for a fix is to go back and try the aluminum prop again, to try to decouple the boat from the water a little. A flexy aluminum prop might dampen this phenomenon.

Has anyone broken an aluminum prop with too much power ?

I do know that chris had a Konrad 560 duo prop leg on his boat. That would have eliminated this torque issue. It may turn out to be my solution too.

I was worried about fresh air ventilation and the small engine space. The present ventilation seems adequate so far. I can put my hand on the dry exhaust and is only warm to the touch. Thank you Jwalker for the tip about the silicone tape. Worked perfectly and looks good too. There is a large volume of cooling water coming out of the exhaust. Like a fire hose when at speed. I gather these engines have big sea water pumps. The downstream exhaust temp did not exceed 40c (120) in this cold water. Transmission was good. Just hot to the touch. I haven't got my temp gage installed yet. Im guessing it was about 50c (130F) perfect.

Its great fun trying to figure this beast out.

More to come as I continue testing.

Cheers DA

[jwalker]

Aha, I think you need a duoprop drive to properly deal with your torque reaction. Since you're taking off like a scalded cat more pitch might calm the boat down a bit, also a spoon shaped cupped prop will give you bow lift and add flightiness. I also think when windy you'll get listing so I see trim tabs in your future.

Cool write up though!

[skidoodog]

Thanks Jwalker.

You might be right about the duo prop...we shall see. Im hoping to find a less expensive solution but will do it if I have to. If going back to the Aluminum prop does not work, I wonder if a Sharrow prop would be any different. An expensive experiment but a fraction of the cost of a new duo prop leg.


Trim tabs may be required eventually. My volvo mechanic suggested the new system, Volvo "blades" I had never heard of it. Looks cool but designed for larger boats I think. Not much room on the stern either with the "elephant trunks" and the get home motor. Hmmm.

More testing next week. I'm all ears if anyone has any suggestions.

A couple more pics of the fantastic day.

Cheers. DA

[ncp]

I'd have to go back and look through my files to confirm (been 7 years since I had my Willard) - but from I recall, I did better with a smaller diameter, larger pitch prop. I think I ended with a 3 x 17.25" x 23" (std 6BT210, 1:1 velvet, and Konrad 540). I think I started with an 3 x 18.5" x 21" and the lean was pretty severe. Chris and I did a lot of emailing and comparing notes as we had he same set-up (this was before his repower).

[Voodoo]

Possibly a smaller diameter prop with larger pitch I agree...and venting the prop might give you a more gradual engagement and less of a kick

[jonp]

I notice that over here in Australia many bigger vessels even twin engined diesels are opting over to outboards rather than inboard diesel's. Was this something you ever considered ?

[skidoodog]

Very valid question. I considered it for 3 years.

Call me traditional. Yes, a centre mounted big diesel is not a trendy set up. Don't get me wrong, new outboards are amazing. The progress made in the last few years is breathtaking. I would say if you want to go fast, go outboard. Despite my fascination with top speed I actually care how this boat handles when it gets lumpy. I have a tendency to put my Gheko helmet and dry suit on and head out when all others are heading in. My idea of weird fun.

Having the motor front and centre, and down low is just what zodiac hurricane boats had in mind with the original "P" rib. Willard bought the design under license and the rest is history. Yes you can put outboards on it but the handling changes.

I wanted to keep the performance and character similar to the original but with 435 hp. I am happy with the results so far but am working on handling quirks.
Not surprising considering doubling the original conceived hp.

Long answer to a short question.