Driving skills (was Driving in fog)

[Richard B]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

Letting your foot off the throttle a little is usually enough-but that comes with the pitfall of no brake lights-so the guy behind closes up before he realises you've slowed.

Now this is exactly whay I have an issue with the "closing the gap" - if the driver behind can't deal with the driver in front lifting off the throttle, then we're all in trouble!

[narked]

Originally Posted by Biggles

Personally I'd like to see Lorries (7.5 ton or over) banned from B roads, villages, and areas of outstanding natural beauty.

There are very few reasons for vehicles of that size to go on these roads and most of these journeys could be made by vans etc. But only vans that drove sensibly and didn't block the road everywhere they park.

If it meant an increase in prices to maintain some sort of peace then I for one would be prepared to pay for it.

Likewise even though I own a 4 x 4 I would be quite happy to see them banned from town centres.

So why's that then? Plenty of wagons here need to use B roads, and drive through villages, and through areas of outstanding natural beauty. See, there's this thing called forestry, which tends to be tucked away in nice scenic areas, either side of winding little country roads. Be a bit daft trying to carry several thousand tonnes of 16' timber by Transit van. Same goes for transporting from quarries and farms.

And all the farmers out here now should go out and buy a 2nd vehicle purely to go out shopping should they?

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by Richard B

Now this is exactly whay I have an issue with the "closing the gap" - if the driver behind can't deal with the driver in front lifting off the throttle, then we're all in trouble!

Least worst option again I'd prefer to have a truck lift off the throttle and lose a few mph then a car cut in from the inside (where it's quite possible I won't be able to see them for a good part of their undertake) FAR closer than I'm following the truck in front then slam on the brakes or lift off the throttle because they don't like being up the backside of an artic. I'll have to brake a lot harder for that-IF I can stop in time.

It's a rock and a hard place.

I've got some pics somewhere here taken from the driving seat (while stationary ) of an artic. I'll try and find one I can post. (no joy-got this one of my old rock'n'roll tour truck though)

Imagine the silver cavalier is facing the same way as the truck-but the same distance out. Move the car forwards 5 feet. You now can't see it at all from the driving seat of the truck.
Move it another 10 feet forwards and you can just see the end of the car bonnet. 5 feet further and it's at about this point that the numties usually start to cut in at 70mph-then realise they can't and overbrake....

[Biggles]

Narked,

I'm sorry but the French realise that Lorries are a pain and ban the bloody things from areas where they would like a bit of peace and quiet.

As for moving lots of logs etc, if it really needs to be done then make allowances. Set times with set convoys. Its not Rocket engineering. As it is we have a free for all on a decrepit 1970's or worse road system with 21st century needs.

I observe in my village and the next one that I shop in deliveries to my local One Stop and Co Op being delivered by, I'm not sure of the size but they are artics and big, and parking so that they block one lane of traffic and make it very much hit or miss whether you can get past without causing a problem yourself. Certainly these lorries should be reduced in size.

Do we really need all these lorries in quiet backwaters. I have to travel to a town to get fuel, my local shops don't sell anything bigger than a chicken, the Post office is probably going to close soon, and thats about it as far as local shops go. So no I don't need lorries, a van will do and a small one at that.

As I pass lorries on my local B Road and just think I'm lucky to get past them I often wonder what happens when two meet each other.

Who is at fault here, Lorries because they are too big for the roads they use or the Government because they haven't built the roads for the big lorries to go on. After all its the government that allows the big lorries.

[Biggles]

Nos,

You have my full sympathy for idiots that cut you up when driving your truck, but most Lorry drivers don't do themsleves any favours when they get on the Motorway and start that stupid 1 mph overtaking thing.

That I don't understand and never will.

I've sat there at 58 mph towing my boat knowing I can overtake on a 2 lane Motorway but haven't done so because it would slow up the much faster saloon cars etc. I wait for a big gap where I overtake without causing undue delay or I don't bother. Its costing me money as well. Out of my pocket.

[Biggles]

Originally Posted by narked

And all the farmers out here now should go out and buy a 2nd vehicle purely to go out shopping should they?

That will be the poor Farmers driving round in Range Rovers.

Well yes they should. And I'd be suprised if they didn't own a second vehicle. Probably a BMW M3 or Audi A8 knowing our poor over subsidised farmers.

In fact its a very old saying but a very true saying. "Have you ever seen a poor Farmer". "Get Off my land" Farmers are never very happy. Suits them to moan.

[Nos4r2]

Nick,

If the trucks are causing that much of a safety issue then write to one-stop and the co-op. Both firms have smaller rigid trucks that they can use if safe access (for the trucks AND the locals) is a problem.

[Biggles]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

Nick,

If the trucks are causing that much of a safety issue then write to one-stop and the co-op. Both firms have smaller rigid trucks that they can use if safe access (for the trucks AND the locals) is a problem.

Okay will do. thanks for that.

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by Biggles

Nos,

You have my full sympathy for idiots that cut you up when driving your truck, but most Lorry drivers don't do themsleves any favours when they get on the Motorway and start that stupid 1 mph overtaking thing.

That I don't understand and never will.

I've sat there at 58 mph towing my boat knowing I can overtake on a 2 lane Motorway but haven't done so because it would slow up the much faster saloon cars etc. I wait for a big gap where I overtake without causing undue delay or I don't bother. Its costing me money as well. Out of my pocket.

I doubt anyone would understand until they drove one. It's unfortunately part of the job.

[narked]

Well maybe they're more of an issue where you are Biggles, but can't say I've ever had any real problems with any of the heavy traffic around here. Set convoy times may work for some wagons, but wouldn't for the likes of timber and quarry traffic out here. My neighbour has his own 44 tonne timber wagon, and regularly I have to follow him up the single track B road where we live. It's steep, it's winding, and it takes him ages to get up there, but I just accept it and put up with it, it only adds a minute or two onto my journey.

And on the topic of wagons and overtaking, how many wagons decide not to stick to the speed limit on single carriageway A roads?! They're buggers to overtake! :P

[Alex Brown]

Originally Posted by narked

So why's that then? Plenty of wagons here need to use B roads, and drive through villages, and through areas of outstanding natural beauty.

It's the same down here - unfortunately, since we have large Oil Refineries this way, we tend to get rather large trucks using the back (single track) roads very regularly. We also have large buses which use these roads too....
The fuel however doesn't just feed us in Pembrokeshire, it goes further afield too, but I cannot see them banning these trucks from using the roads - if anything, the roads will be upgraded in time to handle the traffic whether we like it or not.

Originally Posted by Biggles

Nos,

You have my full sympathy for idiots that cut you up when driving your truck, but most Lorry drivers don't do themsleves any favours when they get on the Motorway and start that stupid 1 mph overtaking thing.

That I don't understand and never will.

I've sat there at 58 mph towing my boat knowing I can overtake on a 2 lane Motorway but haven't done so because it would slow up the much faster saloon cars etc. I wait for a big gap where I overtake without causing undue delay or I don't bother. Its costing me money as well. Out of my pocket.

When you're sat at 58mph, at least you know that you can go a few mph over 60mph if you require unlike the trucks that can go no more....

Whilst towing, I always leave a gap in front that's a fair bit bigger than when not towing - it annoys me when some muppet fills that gap cos it fits their car nicely cos I then have to make that gap back again by dropping my speed a bit. I always used to reckon that if you have to use your brakes on the motorway, you're too close to the car in front. When I was a lot younger on the M6, we were in the lane next to a 10 car pile up due to this - due to bunching, the first 3 cars triggered some serious braking, which got multiplied until the inevitable happened as cars started kissing each other further back, eventually knocking out 2 lanes. It was an interesting journey which should have been 6hrs, eventually ending up as nearly 10hrs.

-Alex

[The Garfish]

Originally Posted by Richard B

it was a bit like that film where the ghostly truck follows a car across the Nevada desert....

yorr a markid mann.

woch owt forr dis trukk

gaRf

[jwalker]

Originally Posted by Alex Brown

Whilst towing, I always leave a gap in front that's a fair bit bigger than when not towing - it annoys me when some muppet fills that gap cos it fits their car nicely cos I then have to make that gap back again by dropping my speed a bit.

Yep but, annoying as that may be, that's the way to do it. It's still the driver behind's responsibility to maintain a safe distance and that is why nos is wrong despite his protestations about the inconvenience to him as a lorry driver.

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by jwalker

Yep but, annoying as that may be, that's the way to do it. It's still the driver behind's responsibility to maintain a safe distance and that is why nos is wrong despite his protestations about the inconvenience to him as a lorry driver.

yawn... IT'S NOTHING TO DO WITH INCONVENIENCE. READ THE POSTS. The WHOLE IDEA IS TO STOP SOMEONE WITH NO CLUE CUTTING RIGHT IN FRONT THROUGH A BLINDSPOT THEN SLAMMING ON THE BRAKES AT A POINT WHERE THE TRUCK HAS NO CHANCE IN HELL OF STOPPING OR EVEN REACTING IN TIME TO TAKE AVOIDING ACTION.

If you don't drive one you really don't have the first idea.

Remember the smash last year on the m1 where a tank fell off a transporter and people died?

That was because some idiot joining the motorway drove up the inside of his truck,swerved out and then slammed on the brakes right under his nose-so damn close (as is the norm) that the car's brakelights weren't even visible...

The "RULES" mean bugger all if you're trying to protect yourself from being in an accident. It's about not letting stupid people shaft you. There is no perceived 'inconvenience to me as a lorry driver' if that happens-it's ALL about not hitting some complete moron with a vehicle that weighs 40+ times what his tin coffin does because he can't be arsed to think more than 5 feet ahead-and me still being in full control of my vehicle rather than jacknifing, having to swerve up the bank, drive over the car overtaking me or killing the moron who started it all in the first place.

If I back off to let one of these morons out they DON'T NOTICE and still drive along the sliproad staring straight ahead.

Let me give you a couple of examples.
This year-M25/A41 junction. Transit drives up inside of me trying to join the motorway. Doesn't look or plan til too late. I can't move over-car in lane 2 overtaking me.Not feasable for me to back off-or time for the transit to get out even if I do. Transit driver refuses to back off and is gesturing out of windscreen at me from by the front trailer axle. Transit driver drives straight onto hard shoulder through a line of cones marking the start of roadworks...

A12. Same as above but I can't move out because a bike's overtaking me- but edge of sliproad near Colchester lined with concrete barriers. Car comes to complete stop on the sliproad after driving the full length of it alongside my trailer.
Car then pulls slowly and dawdles out into the path of the truck following me from STATIONARY-forcing the truck behind to swerve across into lane 2 or hit him.

[Ribald]

I have been following this thread from the start (albeit having seriously deviated from the original subject) and have felt not really qualified to hop in up till now as I have no experience whatever of driving HGV's. In fact, I have a great deal of respect for most of them and will do my best to assist their progress where possible. This comes from 40+ years car/van driving and 2+ years motorcycle riding (not the born-again type ~ learnt from scratch and recently passed the test).

There are, however, a couple of points I would like to raise with Nos and hope I don't get shot down in flames for doing so.

1. In you last post you mentioned that it was "not feasable" for you to slow down in the Transit incident - why not? Does your unit not have an accelerator pedal that you could have eased off? I know that HGV drivers don't like slowing down too much as this results in mutiple gear changes and subsequent loss of time & use of more fuel.

2. What are your thoughts on HGV's travellng at the limited speed but only some 10ft or so from the rear of the rig in front. Does this have something to do with the "slipsteam & tow" effect thereby effecting a fuel saving for the following rig?


During my m/c training it was constantly being drummed into me that I should "be able to stop on my side of the road within the distance that I can see to be clear". I was also advised to treat all other road users as idiots and, therefore, plan my driving accordingly.

[jwalker]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

yawn... IT'S NOTHING TO DO WITH INCONVENIENCE. READ THE POSTS. The WHOLE IDEA IS TO STOP SOMEONE WITH NO CLUE CUTTING RIGHT IN FRONT THROUGH A BLINDSPOT THEN SLAMMING ON THE BRAKES AT A POINT WHERE THE TRUCK HAS NO CHANCE IN HELL OF STOPPING OR EVEN REACTING IN TIME TO TAKE AVOIDING ACTION.

Pish. Perhaps you should suggest your method be written into the highway code.

If you suggest to me there needs to be better education about the method of entering a carriageway from a slip road, I would agree with you. But, given the situation as it is and you being a superiour driver and all, you will be able to see what is on the sliproad and its rate of progress or not and adjust your driving to cope to prevent an undesirable situation arising.
Of course, since you are driving a lorry, with all the difficulties that that implies, you'll be travelling so far behind the vehicle in front for general safety reasons that a vehicle entering this space won't be a problem, will it? Unless, of course, your roadcraft is in question and you are driving far too close to the vehicle in front in the first place which would then allow you, with that limited acceleration, to close the gap even further in order to be obstructive.

But, of course, your driving is of a high order and you wouldn't really be party to such a silly thing, would you?

Merry Christmas Nos.


I actually think that, in general, the British driver is pretty good and, given the number of vehicles on our roads, I'm surprised there are so few accidents.

Merry Christmas to all.

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by Ribald

There are, however, a couple of points I would like to raise with Nos and hope I don't get shot down in flames for doing so.

1. In you last post you mentioned that it was "not feasable" for you to slow down in the Transit incident - why not? Does your unit not have an accelerator pedal that you could have eased off? I know that HGV drivers don't like slowing down too much as this results in mutiple gear changes and subsequent loss of time & use of more fuel.

No probs

Had I eased off the throttle the transit still wouldn't have made it onto the motorway-it would have meant me emergency braking which is far more dangerous considering the amount of traffic on the motorway at the time. He wasn't accelerating. He was alone on the sliproad whereas I was on a busy motorway and there was a gap behind me big enough for him to get into so had I eased off it would have caused him even more problems IF he'd had the slightest bit of forward planning.... (it takes longer to read what happened than it took for it to happen)

Originally Posted by Ribald

2. What are your thoughts on HGV's travellng at the limited speed but only some 10ft or so from the rear of the rig in front. Does this have something to do with the "slipsteam & tow" effect thereby effecting a fuel saving for the following rig?

First you need to understand about speed limiters.

It's due in most part to the speed limiters not being set at exactly the same speed-85kmh +/- 5% is quite a wide variation and in a line of 5 wagons all the speedos will read slightly different by 1kph or so. The actual speed can differ by up to 7 or 8 kph-or be to within 0.5kph.
The major problem with limiters (specially with the new fly-by-wire throttles we have that have hardly any feedback through the pedal) is that at 56 mph you can have the throttle pedal can be anywhere between 50% and all the way to the floor. It's like having a massive dead spot in the throttle in top gear and it makes having the throttle to the floor the most comfortable position to drive in. This means when easing off it's actually quite hard to predict where the power will ease. The limiter graduates the power you're allowed to a certain extent when you come back on the throttle-it's not a sharp cutoff. Easing off can result in a dramatic reduction in speed due to this if you're on a hill and it takes a long time to regain and leaves the guy behind you stuck in the middle lane when he tries to overtake you and you regain speed.

This means that when driving at the speed the limiter allows, if you pull out leaving a 2 second gap to the vehicle in front then you're stuck out in the middle lane for 5 times as long-but everything takes so long to happen when driving a truck that people overtaking don't see it. Cars will undertake you at tis point too and cut in just in front so close you can't see their rear lights over the dashboard.

Sometimes it's the result of a bunch of idiots in the same place at the same time. No job is immune from it-how many of you guys work with idiots?

Usually it's a lot of wagons being on the verge of overtaking each other but you won't see that as someone passing them as it's a painfully slow process. I won't condone it and I try hard not to do it (it makes me uncomfortable being too close) but sometimes it's the lesser of 2 evils to run too close to the back of the wagon in front before pulling out to overtake than to have a bunch of pissed off car drivers swarming around you on both sides like flies round shit because they MUST get that extra few feet if it kills them.

Originally Posted by Ribald

During my m/c training it was constantly being drummed into me that I should "be able to stop on my side of the road within the distance that I can see to be clear". I was also advised to treat all other road users as idiots and, therefore, plan my driving accordingly.

Bloody good advice. Unfortunately on a motorway when limited to 56mph and it takes 1/3 of a mile to stop there isn't anywhere in practice that you can do that unless the motorway is almost empty. You're left with trying to maintain a 2-second gap as much as possible without creating a hazard to people behind you-or stopping!

As for treating all other road users as idiots, yep...
I've got 4 bikes and it works well on a bike. It's not so easy when driving something that's far less manoevreable than the vehicles the idiots are in. You end up having to graduate between likely degrees of idiocy depending on the standard of driving evident before they can possibly cause a problem-hence why I'm more comfortable closing a gap and running too close to the truck in front (if I can) for a few seconds than allowing someone with a blatant lack of a clue into a space where they can cause me a big problem.


Happy Christmas All!

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by jwalker

Pish. Perhaps you should suggest your method be written into the highway code.

If you suggest to me there needs to be better education about the method of entering a carriageway from a slip road, I would agree with you. But, given the situation as it is and you being a superiour driver and all, you will be able to see what is on the sliproad and its rate of progress or not and adjust your driving to cope to prevent an undesirable situation arising.
Of course, since you are driving a lorry, with all the difficulties that that implies, you'll be travelling so far behind the vehicle in front for general safety reasons that a vehicle entering this space won't be a problem, will it? Unless, of course, your roadcraft is in question and you are driving far too close to the vehicle in front in the first place which would then allow you, with that limited acceleration, to close the gap even further in order to be obstructive.

But, of course, your driving is of a high order and you wouldn't really be party to such a silly thing, would you?

Merry Christmas Nos.


I actually think that, in general, the British driver is pretty good and, given the number of vehicles on our roads, I'm surprised there are so few accidents.

Merry Christmas to all.

You really don't get it

Just because there IS a big gap there doesn't mean that it'll be used-or that the car won't join 10 feet ahead of me and brake. It's a frequent ocurrence but when they do it they sit alongside while on the sliproad and dither so all you know is that they are going to do SOMETHING at the last second. Better that they think randomly swerving out behind me is a better idea than in front. Basic self-preservation. I'm talking about the type of driver here that after changing a tyre pulls off the hard shoulder straight onto the motorway that's moving at 56mph+ without building up speed first. You'd be surprised how many do it yet it seems like suicide to anyone with half a brain.

Of course it'll never be written into the highway code. It's a book of rules not techniques-and isn't written very well either. It doesn't even tell a new driver how to drive round a roundabout properly.
The highway code assumes everyone else drives to it as well and the generally held view is that accidents are black or white and instils the idea that there's no consequence to an accident bar blame.

I've got news for you. They HURT and I want no part of them.

Whether my driving is of a high order or not isn't the point. All I'm trying to do is stay alive and not take anyone else out too-and at times it's simply a question of looking at the odds then taking the 'least worst' option...
Go and drive a truck for a while then comment

Merry Xmas Jwalker

[Poly]

I think I summed it up quite well with my earlier comment...

Originally Posted by Polwart

...driving is like sex - we all think we are better at it than everyone else when in reality we probably are not!

...but perhaps I should have added "and most truck drivers will insist they are better still - but the only people who believe them are other truck drivers!"

[Biggles]

Any car joining a Motorway should be able to adjust its speed to join a Motorway without inconveniencing anyone. Whether its Nos in his truck or me towing my boat. Trouble is you only notice it when your stuck on the inside lane. Some people are really bad drivers and shouldn't be on todays busy roads.
Why do people do it ? Its bad driving and its dangerous. Is Motorway driving taught on the test ? I don't know. Long time since I did mine.
Lets face it some people you wouldn't trust with a shopping trolley are driving on our busy roads. Some people seem as though they need a rocket up there jacksy when it comes to Motorway driving other people think they are the best driver in the world (There the ones that fill the gap, often said that they've never been in an accident, but they caused loads !!!)
Unfortunatley because the road is the only reasonable way to get around in this country they are pretty busy. Shame they haven't been upgraded for 20 years. If they had maybe there wouldn't be so much bad feeling on the roads.

Like it or not everybody. The Genie has been let out of the bottle with regards motor vehicles and it ain't going back.

The chancellor knows this and takes great delight in making us feel bad about it and making us pay through the nose in the process.