hho Generator for frelander v6 2.5 petrol

[beamishken]

Originally Posted by Leapy

Neither do I, Nos, Cookee et al. Neither does the might of the world's automotive industry brains trust. But we're all desperate for someone to tell us with data and facts, witnessed and verified. Please.

But, there could be a very good reason why no-one can.

Back in the carb day there were all sorts of fuel saving devices offering unbelievable power and economy improvements - trick spark plugs, fuel pressure regulators, magic fuel additives, magnetic whats-its around fuel lines, and and and ... Some bod fitted all of them to his car at the same time, and guess what?

Nothing. Other than the negative effect of the extra weight being carted around.

I ran a repair garage back in the carb days & used to see cars with various devices fitted we used to call them "Rabbits Feet" because you would get as much benefit from a "lucky" rabbits foot in the glove box

customers always swore they worked I guess they didnt like to admit they got scammed or possibly the items had a placebo effect & made people more aware of there driving style

will wait and see if the makers start fitting hho technology before i invest I think

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Ezgoing

Well done to those who are able to understand what I am getting at.

Pikey Dave appears to understand.

I understand what you have PD are implying. Even if you ignore the laws of physics arguments and buy into your 'makes the petrol part of the combustion more efficient' hypothesis, do you not see it is however most unlikely that some uncontrolled DIY gas maker and 'input' system can produce measurable changes in fuel economy in an engine which has already been optimised for efficiency by teams of R&D scientists who have configured an 'intelligent' ECU?

I accept that these are not some sort of free energy device.

I have first hand experience of one in a Trooper which has lowered fuel consumption by as much as 30% on long journeys.

Contradiction.

Since its the time of the year, it might be best to explain Santa isn't real either (oh and neither is the tooth fairy).

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by Ezgoing

Well done to those who are able to understand what I am getting at.

Pikey Dave appears to understand.

I accept that these are not some sort of free energy device.

I have first hand experience of one in a Trooper which has lowered fuel consumption by as much as 30% on long journeys.

What I am keen to find is someone who has tried it on the 2.5 Freelander.

For those who are interested in checking it out a bit more have a look at some of the youtube entries on this link.


N JOY

hho generator in car - YouTube

There's no 'Well done' about it.I understand exactly what you're saying. Fortunately, I am able to understand when it's completely impossible. I'd 'understand' if you insisted that grass is blue and that birds fly backwards while singing 'Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds'.
In both cases, you'd either be delusional or barking mad.

Describe what you mean by 1st hand, and was it a hydrogen generator or an LPG bottle hooked up to a diesel Trooper?

On second thoughts don't. I give up.

[Festinghouse]

Originally Posted by Ezgoing

Well done to those who are able to understand what I am getting at.

Pikey Dave appears to understand.

I accept that these are not some sort of free energy device.

I have first hand experience of one in a Trooper which has lowered fuel consumption by as much as 30% on long journeys.

What I am keen to find is someone who has tried it on the 2.5 Freelander.

For those who are interested in checking it out a bit more have a look at some of the youtube entries on this link.


N JOY

hho generator in car - YouTube

what trooper did you have it in? ie which engine, and also what was the actual mpg figures you were getting?

[Leapy]

Originally Posted by Festinghouse

and also what was the actual mpg figures you were getting?

And how did you measure it?

[willk]

Originally Posted by Poly

...it might be best to explain Santa isn't real either)...

Poly, that's the sort of loose talk that I'd Bilge a member for. As I can't appear to make that lever function, I've found you a temporary Avatar instead

[Rokraider]

Originally Posted by Poly

I understand what you have PD are implying. Even if you ignore the laws of physics arguments and buy into your 'makes the petrol part of the combustion more efficient' hypothesis, do you not see it is however most unlikely that some uncontrolled DIY gas maker and 'input' system can produce measurable changes in fuel economy in an engine which has already been optimised for efficiency by teams of R&D scientists who have configured an 'intelligent' ECU?

I don't believe you can make an all encompassing statement that just because teams of R&D scientists have optimised an intelligent ECU that you will have that setup fitted by the car manufacturers. In most cases, you find that there is still room for a lot of improvement for performance. The manufacturers will optimise the setup to offer the least emissions whilst still being able to drag its arse along and give a frugal fuel return. This is done so the engine can be sold in virtually any country and pass their regulations, whilst offering a low stressed reliable,cheap, engine.
On the modern engines you often find that a bit of tweaking on the ignition and fuel mapping will release quite a bit more power reliably and still pass an MOT on the emission test.
We fitted a Tunit box on a 100 series diesel Land Cruiser recently and it made a huge difference to performance. It has 9 maps built in that you can select, each giving a different power setup. We ended up with it on No 7 map (9 being the quickest) and it transformed a heavy tank of a vehicle into something quite sporty. Setting 9 was too brutal and if you floored it from a standing start (auto box) it would smoke its front tyres where they scrabbled for grip.
The interesting thing is, if you refrain from using the extra performance and drive it sensibly, it gives a better fuel return than it did standard, possibly an improvement of 5 MPG on the run?

[mister p]

There was a fashion about 15 years ago to fit water injection into the inlet tracts of cars. This did increase performance but not necessarily efficiency.
It worked by cooling the intake temp, much like NO2 or supercharging. There may even have been an element of superheated steam and water breakdown going on.
Anyway, as Rokraider says, engine management systems have a lot of tunability. This exists because of different ambient temps, fuel qualities and variable oxygen content of air due to altitude ( pressure). This is done to maximise engine ability across various markets. One reason that saltwater ready engines can have a high specific tune is that they all run (by default) at sea level.
A friend of mine was convinced that he could get his car "used" to running on water by adding a little bit more water to the fuel tank after each fill, finally ending up running his car on water alone..............needless to say his car had a hissy fit and stopped working.

[Rokraider]

Originally Posted by mister p

There was a fashion about 15 years ago to fit water injection into the inlet tracts of cars. This did increase performance but not necessarily efficiency.
It worked by cooling the intake temp, much like NO2 or supercharging. There may even have been an element of superheated steam and water breakdown going on.
Anyway, as Rokraider says, engine management systems have a lot of tunability. This exists because of different ambient temps, fuel qualities and variable oxygen content of air due to altitude ( pressure). This is done to maximise engine ability across various markets. One reason that saltwater ready engines can have a high specific tune is that they all run (by default) at sea level.
A friend of mine was convinced that he could get his car "used" to running on water by adding a little bit more water to the fuel tank after each fill, finally ending up running his car on water alone..............needless to say his car had a hissy fit and stopped working.

Your mates efforts with water are amusing, but there does appear to be a weird phenomenon that occurrs with ancient low tune diesel engines. Although all common sense suggests it is nonsense, if Easystart or suchlike is used to help start a tired diesel, they do appear to get addicted to it and become more and more reluctant to start without it?

[willk]

Originally Posted by Rokraider

Although all common sense suggests it is nonsense, if Easystart or suchlike is used to help start a tired diesel, they do appear to get addicted to it and become more and more reluctant to start without it?

The common sense explanation that I heard for that was that the damage caused by non-lubricated start damaged the liners, reducing compression and thereafter needing more and more easy start to fire it.

Dunno if "that's the why"?

[Leapy]

Rokraider ... I'm not sure what business you're in but it appears you have some after-market interest in engine management systems. I don't know whether you just sell them or engineer them also. Either way ...

Originally Posted by Rokraider

In most cases, you find that there is still room for a lot of improvement for performance. The manufacturers will optimise the setup to offer the least emissions whilst still being able to drag its arse along and give a frugal fuel return

Yes, but their optimisation doesn't start and end with performance and economy (P&E)

Originally Posted by Rokraider

This is done so the engine can be sold in virtually any country and pass their regulations, whilst offering a low stressed reliable,cheap, engine

There are numerous emission specifications around the world. Unfortunately, there's not may countries that can agree that some else's regulations apply to them. My experience is that it would probably be easier to get the Israelis and the Palestinians to agree a land deal.

Originally Posted by Rokraider

modern engines you often find that a bit of tweaking on the ignition and fuel mapping will release quite a bit more power reliably and still pass an MOT on the emission test.

Release power? Yes. Reliably? Never proven. Do you/your supplier sign off driveline durability after "release(ing) quite a bit more power? Manufacturers don't have to pass an MOT on new vehicles. It's a little bit more stringent than that, and, in some countries, they have to certify that tail-pipe legal emissions are maintained for 100,000 miles.

Originally Posted by Rokraider

We recently fitted a Tunit box on a 100 series diesel Land Cruiser recently and it made a huge difference to performance. It has 9 maps built in that you can select, each giving a different power setup. We ended up with it on No 7 map (9 being the quickest) and it transformed a heavy tank of a vehicle into something quite sporty. Setting 9 was too brutal and if you floored it from a standing start (auto box) it would smoke its front tyres where they scrabbled for grip.

Yes, I'm sure it would, though I'm struggling with the words "Land Cruiser" and "sporty" in the same sentence. I wonder how long the tyres would last or stay on the rims or the half shafts would last or the diff or the gearbox or the clutch? Did "Tunit" sign off the driveline durability for this "brutal" calibration?

Originally Posted by Rokraider

interesting thing is, if you refrain from using the extra performance and drive it sensibly, it gives a better fuel return than it did standard, possibly an improvement of 5 MPG on the run?

Yes, quite possibly, but quite possibly too that all else goes out the window.

I think you're doing the manufacturers a disservice. Last time I checked and researched, after-market customers weren't looking for a remap to reduce tyre wear or prolong gearbox life or improve drivability or reduce tail-pipe emissions or improve refinement. They invariably want more power or torque or less fuel consumption or all three. And yes, you can have all that. What you can't have is all that AND comply with emissions regulations and passing noise regulations and driveline durability specifications and have acceptable tyre wear and satisfy critical customers expectations of driveability. And. And. And

And, the guys that do this work are clever enough to know that manufacturing a HOH device out of a recycled frying pan, some left over chicken wire and a 12v battery just don't work.

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by Ezgoing

Pikey Dave appears to understand.

Whooaa there boy! Steady on:-

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

Well, the monoatomic ionized hydrogen sold it to me
Like I said, just playing devils advocate (slow day)

[Rokraider]

Originally Posted by willk

The common sense explanation that I heard for that was that the damage caused by non-lubricated start damaged the liners, reducing compression and thereafter needing more and more easy start to fire it.

Dunno if "that's the why"?

Possibly, but the injector is still squirting diesel into the combustion chamber and the oil pump is still doing its thing, so it is still getting lubricated? They do knock loudly when starting on Easystart which probably isn't a good thing. I imagine that the combustion forces will be a lot higher than normal which must stress things?

[Rokraider]

Originally Posted by Leapy

Rokraider ... I'm not sure what business you're in but it appears you have some after-market interest in engine management systems. I don't know whether you just sell them or engineer them also. Either way ...

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i own a 4x4 specialist workshop. Surrey Off-Road Specialists Limited: 4x4 Preparation, Servicing & Modification
We have worked for several 4x4 manufactures and the MOD. Although my background is Land Rovers, I prefer to work on a wide variety of makes and we do a lot of bespoke design work and help with development, as well as service the local farmers pickup.

My family has the Dunsfold Land Rover Collection for the Land Rover enthusiasts out there
Dunsfold Collection This is a major time and money consuming obsession that my brother takes care of, now my father has retired.
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There are numerous emission specifications around the world. Unfortunately, there's not may countries that can agree that some else's regulations apply to them. My experience is that it would probably be easier to get the Israelis and the Palestinians to agree a land deal.

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Agreed. So they choose the most difficult regs in the world to pass and build the engine to perform as well as possible whilst meeting these regulations. They have different maps for different countries so all they have to is fit the relevant ECU.

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Release power? Yes. Reliably? Never proven. Do you/your supplier sign off driveline durability after "release(ing) quite a bit more power? Manufacturers don't have to pass an MOT on new vehicles. It's a little bit more stringent than that, and, in some countries, they have to certify that tail-pipe legal emissions are maintained for 100,000 miles.

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Which countries are these? You can destroy any drivetrain with bad driving regardless of whether it has been tweaked or not. We are only talking of a few extra horsepower here and there, we are not talking about massive increases. Most transmissions have enough reserve to easily cope with with another 10-15 BHP.

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Yes, I'm sure it would, though I'm struggling with the words "Land Cruiser" and "sporty" in the same sentence. I wonder how long the tyres would last or stay on the rims or the half shafts would last or the diff or the gearbox or the clutch? Did "Tunit" sign off the driveline durability for this "brutal" calibration?

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You would be surprised how lively a Land Cruiser is, they are fun to drive and with some tuning on the suspension they handle surprisingly well. Again a few extra horses aren't going to tear tyres off rims! Granted smoking front tyres is going to put halfshafts and CV joints at risk, but that falls into the bad driving category. All Tunit do is offer to give you a small increase in power and in some situations economy. If you drive it like a twat you will trash the vehicle.

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Yes, quite possibly, but quite possibly too that all else goes out the window.

I think you're doing the manufacturers a disservice. Last time I checked and researched, after-market customers weren't looking for a remap to reduce tyre wear or prolong gearbox life or improve drivability or reduce tail-pipe emissions or improve refinement. They invariably want more power or torque or less fuel consumption or all three. And yes, you can have all that. What you can't have is all that AND comply with emissions regulations and passing noise regulations and driveline durability specifications and have acceptable tyre wear and satisfy critical customers expectations of driveability. And. And. And

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And your point is? I don't see how I am doing the manufacturers a disservice, I don't have to play by the same rules that they do, which gives me more scope to tweak it a bit. By having companies like mine out there experimenting with their products, they get free feedback and testing of ideas that if good, they can assimilate. It is a free form of R&D that they can stand back from if it goes tits up!
If you are worried about all the points you made above, you are not the sort of person who will ever try it. That's fine.

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And, the guys that do this work are clever enough to know that manufacturing a HOH device out of a recycled frying pan, some left over chicken wire and a 12v battery just don't work.

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I am still waiting to see proof that these devices work as well, so I will keep an open mind.

What do you drive then?

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by Rokraider

Possibly, but the injector is still squirting diesel into the combustion chamber and the oil pump is still doing its thing, so it is still getting lubricated? They do knock loudly when starting on Easystart which probably isn't a good thing. I imagine that the combustion forces will be a lot higher than normal which must stress things?

That too. The ether in easystart doesn't burn, it detonates.

[Leapy]

Originally Posted by Rokraider

And your point is?

That there's no such thing as a free lunch

[Cookee]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

That too. The ether in easystart doesn't burn, it detonates.

And the damage done makes it harder to start engines after a time.

I think it's fair to say most on here are in the bullshit camp when it comes to HHO - Ezgoing - Fit a system and do some scientific testing and come back to us with the results, I'm sure I'm not alone in looking forward to hearing how it works out for you!

[Leapy]

Originally Posted by Cookee

Ezgoing - Fit a system and do some scientific testing and come back to us with the results, I'm sure I'm not alone in looking forward to hearing how it works out for you!

+1

[doggypaddle]

Originally Posted by Cookee

And the damage done makes it harder to start engines after a time.

And if you need easy start on an engine that usually starts without volatile aromatic starting aids, its usually because its about fekked already
also no one evere seems it use it properly, you musnt use heater plugs(impossible on most newer engines) and it needs to be sprayed sparingly into the intake of a rapidly cranking engine.
however the usual is, crank the engine till the battery is nearly flat, and fill the air filter with easy start........clatter bang clatter!!

as for browns gas this really works honest Guv