Pug 206 Woes

[Nasher]

Just got in from the garage having nearly frozen to death trying to sort out Mrs Nashers Peugeot 206. Its a 1.4l petrol.

She called after work today to say her car wasn't running right, was down on power, and the check engine light was flashing on and off.

When I got there I found she'd had the problem at the end of her journey on the way in this morning, but just presumed it would put itself right, apparently it had done this twice in the last few months and had been OK after being left all day. Of course she hadn't said a word to me.

I took it for a short test drive and found that yes it was down on power, and running rough on tickover so towed it home for a better look.

It runs rough on tickover but sits there 'hunting' up and down, giving it a bit of throttle appears to make it run sweeter, but it is down on power.

I tried all the quick stuff like checking all the connectors, making sure the air filter wasn't blocked etc etc, and even replaced a bit of rubber hose on the breather system that could heve been letting in air where it was perished. I dropped a new set of plugs in, although strangely the ones I took out were all a nice even Tan colour, showing no signs of trouble. I've discounted a fuel supply issue and the coil pack because of this but could be wrong.

I'm leaning towards a Lambda sensor problem now, and will try to pick up a couple of generic ones tomorrow that are only about £15ea. Might as well replace both whilst I'm doing it, they are the originals which are 8 years old and have done 95K miles.

Whilst typing this I've thought it could be the Throttle position sensor, but am not going back out in the cold tonight. Not sure if it has a crank position sensor or wheel at all.

What do you think?
Am I on the right lines?
Or have I missed something obvious?

Nasher.

[JSP]

What kind of age Nasher? I've been out of the car game to long but I remember pug engines are great (specially Diesels). Is it a carb, a single point injector on to a carb or is it a full injection model?

Never forget stripping a pug engine down with one of my mates when I was a teenager. We thought we'd broke it when we found the cylinders weren't connected to the block

[Hightower]

If injecton have a look at the tickover bypass valve for the hunting (if it has one) but wouldn't be down on power because of this.

The Lambder sensors might need replacing as I understand life can be as low as 60,000 miles, but experience has told me that these usually go wrong pretty fast so with the other incidents happening intermittently, it makes me wonder.

TPS would normally create a flat spot during acceleration. So unless this is happening I would discount this.

Can you interragate the ECM and find out what the fault is?

[murph06]

I've changed coil packs on both 1.1's and 1.4's, very common.

[mdt]

Originally Posted by Hightower

Can you interragate the ECM and find out what the fault is?

yep you can if you have the correct gear. but if you are in the RAC (other services are avalible) get the good lady to call them and say it is down on power and she thinks it is going to cut out at any point. the first thing the RAC will do is plug in the lap top and read off the fault code. and find out what is wrong.

If it is simple fix then get them to "recover" her back home. you sort out the part and the problem sorted. well fingers crossed.

[Nasher]

Thanks Guys.

The car is a 2001 model 1.4l.

I'm beginning to regret towing it home myself, but it was only a few days ago she had to get the AA to tow her home after the clutch cable snapped. At least that was an obvious fault that only took me 1/2hr to put right.
Its been so reliable up until now, we've had it from new but can't afford to change it at the moment.

The Generic £15 Lambda sensors are harder to get hold of now locally, although they are on ebay in Gosport but the seller isn't answering any questions about me collecting in the evening.
Direct replacement parts are available easily at @£50ea, but I'd rather spent an hour splicing 8 wires than spend £70 more.

The £70 saving also gives me the oppertunity to try the coil pack first which is available for @£50 and I can sell the old one on ebay if it proves to be OK.
I'll be trying to pick one up tomorrow, but as we've only one car now I'm running family about mornings and evenings and trying to make up the hours at work as well.

Nasher

[Hightower]

Originally Posted by Nasher

Thanks Guys.


The Generic £15 Lambda sensors are harder to get hold of now locally, although they are on ebay in Gosport but the seller isn't answering any questions about me collecting in the evening.

Nasher

If it's the same seller as the one I used last year for the Kia, he is based in the back of a carpet warehouse (renting space). I found him contactable and collected on a Friday afternoon. If I can help you out Nasher by popping down and collecting them for you?

BTW the first sensor I connected up didn't work and threw up more fault codes than I care to remember. He replaced it without any trouble.

Andy

[doggypaddle]

with any luck its the coil pack theyre crap! a friend had a 206 which conked out at regular random intervals for a 2 year period and no garage could ever fix it.
when it finally died i was asked to look at it,
Coilpack had failed, since changing it a year ago it hasnt missed a beat
aparently the insulation or screening fails and confuses the hell out of the ecu with voltage spikes long before they die totally.
bad news it they can jigger the ECU too but they are fixable.

[Matt]

I guess it's prob the TU3JP motah, as used in loads and loads of things.

The coil packs are prone to go, and when they do, feed back into the ECU and cook it. On Vix's 306 (same motah though), the coil went, noticeable as a misfire when cold which went when the motah warmed up. There is a "preferred" brand replacement - can't remember which it is though.

If the light is on, TBH I'd (paying if necessary) to plug it in and see which sensor is flagging a failure.
If you start plugging/unplugging things, the ECU will log all of em and you won't know which is the real error.
I believe you can get leads & software off ebay cheaply as well.

Does it run OK right from cold start, and then get worse after a minute or 2 - the Lambda sensor isn't used until it warms up slightly.

Finally, Vix's car had similar symptoms intermittently - it went ultra rich even when warm. Turned out to be the ECU coolant sensor was saying -40C as the motor warmed up, so the ECU was going max rich - enough to stall the car.

[doggypaddle]

TBH for £50 i would replace the coil pack anyway, there is a reasnobale chance its either past its best or the cause of the problem.
i had a look on the PUG forum and it does recommend replacing a certain make of pack as a matter of course to avoid the possibility of wrecking the ECU.

[Nasher]

Thanks guys.
Have to agree with you Doggy, I've been out lunchtime and picked up a coil pack, was £58 but thats not too bad. I'll try it when I get home later.

I've also spent some time on a 206 forum and it does appear to be a weak spot. The one on the car is supposed to be the better one, but only in as much as it doesn't usually spike the ECU when it dies, but does still die.
As mentioned its done @95K miles and is 8 years old, which according to what I've seen is amazing.

Nasher.

[Nasher]

Well although not a complete waste of £58, but the new coil pack hasn't made a bit of differance.

It does start from cold but runs very rough as if not firing on all four cylinders, and the check engine light flashes on and off. If you give the throttle a stab it revs, but sounds a bit rough, then stalls as the revs fall back down to what should be idle speed.
The new set of plugs aren't showing up one cylinder that appears to be a problem.

From what Matt says the Lambda sensors can't be the issue as its starting from completly cold before the sensors are used.

My trouble is getting it somewhere to plug it in, as I really don't want to drive it very far in case I do some damage, oh and of course I'm working all day.

Nasher

[Hightower]

Just a thought, but have you a rotor arm and distributer cap?

When I had problems with rough running of my Rover it was the dizzy rotor arm that was at fault. There is a resistor between the electrode on the end of the rotor arm and the centre brush.

http://rib.net/forum/showthread.php?...over+rotor+arm

[Matt]

Nah, this motor doesn't have em.

[Matt]

IIRC, the motor will still idle "OK" with the TPS disconnected, so you can safely disconnect that and see if it has an impact - in fact the only sensor I know of it defo won't run without is the MAP & flywheel sensors (And mebbe cam - can't remember if it has a seperate cam sensor too)

Is it hunting in a rich/irregular kind of way, or in a regular 1 cylinder missing way?

[GuyP]

Nasher

I've got a 2004 206 Gti180, which used to experience exactly the same issues:

* rough on start up
* hunting for revs
* check engine warning light
* conking out (at 80mph on the M25 on a couple of occasions - not pleasant)

It went back to peugeot 8 or 9 time to resolve it - they read the ECU fault readings every time and they were always clear. Therefore they claimed the issue was:

* silicon sealant blocking the connection to the ECU - they soaked the plug in something to remove the silicon apparently
* a faulty ECU - they replaced the ECU
* the electronic fuel tank sensor sending faulty messages to ECU, and the ECU cutting power - advise was to ensure to use super unleaded!
* the ECU requiring a software update - they did this 5 or 6 times

After the last software update it hasn't re-occurred (18 months ago and still got my fingers crossed), however, my gut feeling is that it's sod all to do with that.

The issue only used to occur during summer months, so i think it is a faulty lambda sensor (different air density and temperatures etc) - I asked them to check this on multiple occassions but the ECU fault reading were all clear apparently. As your problem seems to have occurred during the winter months, maybe it's a similar issue?

Anyway - don't got to pug to get an answer, coz it won't happen! Try the lambda, especially as it's only £15, and if it still occurs take it to a decent independent auto-electrician who'll know doubt tell you about all the pugs he fixes on a weekly basis!

[Nasher]

Thanks everyone, whilst you've been discussing it I've been out in the garage learning all about Pug injection and control systems. But it still isn't right.

TPS - disconnected it, it still started, idled badly, and appeared to still respond to throttle, but as it had no load on it I can't say for certain. reconnected it.

MAP sensor(Well what I think is the MAP sensor, connected by a small bore tube to the inlet after the throttle body via the breather system and with a 2 pin connector) - again disconnected it electrically and no change.

Idle control valve - Thought I'd found it with this as it was all gummed up, and presumed I'd be giving Hightower the prize for guessing it.
Cleaned it out and it idled sweeter and appeared to respond a bit quicker to throttle although still 'hunts' but not nearly as much.
Thought I'd replace the valve tomorrow but take it for a quick test drive.
It now hesitates coming off idle, runs almost OK up to @2K revs, then sounds really rough as though its only running on three and making lots of mechanical noise, then over 3.5K revs it gets better but still feels down on power.
I think I've probably got the idle control valve working better than it was, but don't think this is the main problem as I don't think it could cause the problems over 2K revs, but might be wrong.

Any more thoughts?
If I can get hold of 2 of the £15 Lambda sensors I'll change them.
Hightower do you have a phone number for the guys in Gosport? or even remember the name of the company? They are not responding to my ebay questions.
Will probably try to swap out the idle control valve as well just in case.

EDIT
Just thought, what I should have done is disconnect the idle valve in its shut position and try driving it to see how it runs.

Nasher.

[Hightower]

TGP sales was the name. I did have their phone number but must have thrown it, so no telephone number for them.

If you'd like me to go down there on Friday afternoon with £30 cash and buy them, then I'm sure I could arrange to meet you at a more acceptable time to do a dodgy deal Just make sure I have the model numbers of the sensors you're after.

With regard the Air valve, I have a tip! Make sure it has no oil inside it and swish some meths around after you finish cleaning with wd40 or whatever. As air gets sucked though the valve the last thing you want is dust sticking to oil.

[PeterM]

Not my strong point , but have you tried swapping the HT leads ? - if one is intermittently OK could it cause the missing - rough running / down on power ? Just an easy bit to test . They rarely fail so are not usually considered a problem - but I had an Audi that was similar - garage spent days testing this & that , but ended being £6 for 1 new lead. Maybe wouldn't see it affect the plug colour as they would rapidly come back to correct after some ' proper' firing for a few mins .

[Nasher]

The coil pack is one of the all in one units that bolts down on the top of the plugs doing away with any leads.

Nasher