'Commercial' towing derogations

[Dry_Doc]

Morning all,

Can anyone clarify our situation:

I work for a University. Our boat is used for training and commercial purposes.
The GTW for our combo (Hilux 280 double cab, single axle trailer) is 4280Kg (I had it on a weighbridge yesterday, fully fuelled, the gross weight was 3440Kg so we're well within the towing limits).

A I understand it, according to the VOSA guidelines, this means we need a tacho fitted and an operators licence to tow the boat. However, there is this specific derogation (lifted straight from the guidance notes):

Vehicles or combinations of vehicles with a maximum
permissible mass not exceeding 7.5 tonnes that are
used:
• by universal service providers as defined in Article
2(13) of Directive 96/67/EC of the European
Parliament and of the Council of 15 December 1997
on common rules for the development of the internal
market of community postal services and the
improvement of quality service to deliver items as part
of the universal service; or
• for carrying materials, equipment or machinery
for the driver’s use in the course of his work.

These vehicles shall be used only within a 50 km
radius of the base of the undertaking and on the
condition that driving the vehicle does not constitute
the driver’s main activity.

The way I read this, we are carrying 'equipment or machinary for the driver's use in the course of his work' and provided we are towing within 50Km of 'base', we don't fall under the EU driver hours regs.

Am I barking up the wrong tree here? Any advice much appreciated!

[Sailmaker]

You need to be a 'universal service provider' before you can grab the exemption. I believe that means you are part of a service that provides general access to telpehone or postal services - e.g. British Telecom & Kingston (the Hull telecom service provider) have been designated as universal service providers.

Sadly you and I caan't get that designation!

[Dry_Doc]

Originally Posted by Sailmaker

You need to be a 'universal service provider' before you can grab the exemption. I believe that means you are part of a service that provides general access to telpehone or postal services - e.g. British Telecom & Kingston (the Hull telecom service provider) have been designated as universal service providers.

Sadly you and I caan't get that designation!

Is that correct? The way I read it it applies to USPs OR for carrying materials/equipment/goods for the driver's use.

According to VOSA GV74 (Goods vehicle operator licensing - guide for operators), we also may be exempt as 'dual purpose' vehicles are exempt from the operator's regulations. Although I haven't yet found a definitive definition of what constitutes 'dual purpose'.

Also, (again according to GV74) if the trailer's unladen weight is less than 1020Kg, then it is ignored in weight calculations anyway. So provided the tow vehicle MAM is less than 3500Kg then an operator's licence isn't required.

I really think I need to speak to the traffic commisioners' office for a definitive answer!

[Sailmaker]

You may be right, I missed the 'OR'. As you say let's see how the traffic commissioners interpret it.

[Nos4r2]

I don't know the answer to this one-but if you do find out that it's legal to tow it without a tacho an O-licence, I'd laminate and carry a copy of the legislation or letter from the traffic comissioner with you.
VOSA staff are notoriously good at using 'personal interpretations' of the rules-or on occasion making things up.

[Dry_Doc]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

I don't know the answer to this one-but if you do find out that it's legal to tow it without a tacho an O-licence, I'd laminate and carry a copy of the legislation or letter from the traffic comissioner with you.
VOSA staff are notoriously good at using 'personal interpretations' of the rules-or on occasion making things up.

I've spoken to VOSA (on the phone, so not actually binding at all in any way shape or form!) and they confirmed that dual purpose vehicles (i.e. basically 4x4 vehicles with 4 seats and weighing under 2040Kg) are exempt, full stop.
They also confirmed that 'Small' (under 3.5t MAM) commercial vehicles can also be exempt, provided that it's towing a 'small' trailer (unladen weight of less than 1040Kg), as small trailers are ignored when calculating weight for the purposes of O-licences.

It's all in this document:

http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosacorp/repo...74%2009-08.pdf

Part1, para 1.1 (p3) and Appendix 3 (p32), down near the bottom of the page.

The Rules on Drivers' hours document doesn't seem to make any mention of this! But, to be fair, it is concerned primarily with Drivers' Hours rather than operator licences.

This link may be useful too:

http://www.transportoffice.gov.uk/cr...quirements.htm

[m chappelow]

i know that there used to be 2 types of operators licence b which was orange in colour and the c ,the b was for what i think you requirements are ,your own equipment and goods but not for sale and non carrige of another persons goods for hire or reward , the c licence was colour blue that was for carrying goods ie general haulage and distribution ie pick up and delivery of others goods for hire or reward ,i knew someone that had a large transit van that required a tacograph to be fitted and calibrated every 2 years but he dident have to use it ,

[Tony Hill]

I called at the local VOSA Centre.
The information I was given
Trailer unladen weight less than 1020Kg is crucial
Fit a tacho
You adhere to the driving hours when you are towing -
As we also use our Land Rover privately the comment was don't need to use the tacho at these times.
Tow trailer to the max recommended weight limit for the vehicle as stated by the manufacturer.
Keep records of servicing trailer, vehicle
Have a start up inspection of vehicle/trailer lights, tyres etc and log
We wouldn't then be bothered

[Dry_Doc]

Originally Posted by Tony Hill

I called at the local VOSA Centre.
The information I was given
Trailer unladen weight less than 1020Kg is crucial
Fit a tacho
You adhere to the driving hours when you are towing -
As we also use our Land Rover privately the comment was don't need to use the tacho at these times.
Tow trailer to the max recommended weight limit for the vehicle as stated by the manufacturer.
Keep records of servicing trailer, vehicle
Have a start up inspection of vehicle/trailer lights, tyres etc and log
We wouldn't then be bothered

Pardon my ignorance, but why would you want to go to the expense and hassle of fitting a tacho if you don't need one? Are VOSA staff really that prickly/ignorant of their own rules?

The driver's hours hasn't been an issue for us really as we generally only tow the boat about 10 miles from the campus to our launch point on the Humber.

[SDGANDER]

Was this the Beverley VOSA office? I had some dealings with them about 14 months ago on a licensing matter and it was a nightmare - they gave me the wrong documents, issued something they weren't meant to and cost me 2 unnecessary return trips of about 80 miles to sort out their mess as it couldn't be done over the phone.

W.

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by Dry_Doc

Are VOSA staff really that prickly/ignorant of their own rules?

Yes.

[Tony Hill]

If you are towing for commercial gain - and that includes towing your boat to a site where it will go out on charter and the whole rig (tow vehicle and trailer) exceeds 3,500Kg a tacho is required.
You can tow your personal boat using your private car without a tacho even if you exceed 3,500Kg

[Dry_Doc]

Originally Posted by Tony Hill

If you are towing for commercial gain - and that includes towing your boat to a site where it will go out on charter and the whole rig (tow vehicle and trailer) exceeds 3,500Kg a tacho is required.

That's not what the regs say, according to the documents in the links that I posted, and when I phoned VOSA for confirmation:

If the ULW of the trailer is under 1020Kg then it doesn't count towards the weight calculations.

It's also in the legislation, just rather more difficult to extract:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1995...0023_en_6#sch1

Schedule 1, 3(1)

Originally Posted by SDGANDER

Was this the Beverley VOSA office? I had some dealings with them about 14 months ago on a licensing matter and it was a nightmare - they gave me the wrong documents, issued something they weren't meant to and cost me 2 unnecessary return trips of about 80 miles to sort out their mess as it couldn't be done over the phone.

W.

No, the national VOSA office.

[Dry_Doc]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

Yes.

Oh.

I suspect they're also like Police officers, in that they don't like it if you try and convince them that they are in the wrong?

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by Dry_Doc

Oh.

I suspect they're also like Police officers, in that they don't like it if you try and convince them that they are in the wrong?

Traffic wardens would be a closer comparison.

Small men with little willy syndrome who think they are god.

Some are OK, but in my experience it's generally the older ones.

[Bigmuz7]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

Traffic wardens would be a closer comparison.

Small men with little willy syndrome who think they are god.

Some are OK, but in my experience it's generally the older ones.

Aint that the truth

Dry_Doc.. at 7am this morning I wrote a post saying that whilst I agreed with Nos you should have a bit of paper quoting your knowledge of the regs,. I didnt post it due to my lack of time to check my thinking,.. and you made a point in one of your own posts later as it turns out, which was similar to my intention which was , to state that 'they' dont like getting told the rules by a 'lesser' mortal and I can vouch for that .. they dont.

I believe what you post is correct however Dry_Doc.. as .. save for the new driver hours regulations and unladen trailer weights, its what I had come to understand, reference tachographs.. however unfortunately as Nos stated .. you are really open to.. 'thinking' on the day They can be very ill informed

On the upside .. I've been stopped many times by VOSA in all sorts of rigs without any problems, save for an odd air line leak .. but I have never been stopped with my car and a boat .. Maybe they are scared to ask .. make of that what you will .. but now Ive posted this, I'd better look out my paper work

Maybe some VOSA guys read this forum ? FFS .. look busy

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by Bigmuz7

you are really open to.. 'thinking' on the day They can be very ill informed

Last time I was stopped by VOSA was southbound on the M74 about 50 miles south of Glasgow in the big checkpoint there. I got a GV9 for a non functional limiter-even though it worked. It was cancelled within an hour because VOSA were using faulty equipment.

The time before that, I was asked 4 times what size vehicle it was I was driving-and the first 3 times he didn't believe it was only a 7.5 tonner even though the weight plate was a foot in front of the guy's face...

[Tony Hill]

My statement was if you exceed 3500Kg, I extract from your link as supplied. see below If your combination is over 3.5 tons you are a commercial goods vehicle over 3.5 tons therefore my local office believes I fall under the tacho rules. Anything goes wrong I produce the letter and phone my local office
Your combination is just less than 3.5 tons so its no problem.
Our boat/trailer combination is around 3.5 tons, add a Defender to the combination. We use our boats commercially We have a tacho.


Extract from your link
A goods vehicle falls within this paragraph if it forms part of an articulated combination which is such that—
(a) in a case where the trailer comprised in the combination has a relevant plated weight, the aggregate of—
(i) the unladen weight of the motor vehicle comprised in the combination, and
(ii) the relevant plated weight of that trailer,
does not exceed 3.5 tonnes, or
(b) in any other case, the aggregate of the unladen weights of the motor vehicle and the trailer comprised in the combination does not exceed 1525 kilograms.

[Dry_Doc]

Originally Posted by Tony Hill

My statement was if you exceed 3500Kg, I extract from your link as supplied. see below If your combination is over 3.5 tons you are a commercial goods vehicle over 3.5 tons therefore my local office believes I fall under the tacho rules. Anything goes wrong I produce the letter and phone my local office
Your combination is just less than 3.5 tons so its no problem.
Our boat/trailer combination is around 3.5 tons, add a Defender to the combination. We use our boats commercially We have a tacho.

Yes, you will need a tacho IF your trailer ULW is greater than 1020Kg. However, dual purpose vehicles are also exempt according to page 31 of VOSA GV74: http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosacorp/repo...74%2009-08.pdf although I can't find any reference to this in the legislation. You may well be using a tacho when you don't need to.

Extract from your link
A goods vehicle falls within this paragraph if it forms part of an articulated combination which is such that—
(a) in a case where the trailer comprised in the combination has a relevant plated weight, the aggregate of—
(i) the unladen weight of the motor vehicle comprised in the combination, and
(ii) the relevant plated weight of that trailer,
does not exceed 3.5 tonnes, or
(b) in any other case, the aggregate of the unladen weights of the motor vehicle and the trailer comprised in the combination does not exceed 1525 kilograms.

Please reread what I posted:

Our combo's plated weight is 4280Kg, which is the method used for the purpose of O-licence calculations. I now know that for the purposes of o-licenses, the actual weight is irrelevant - provided it doesn't exceed the MAM or max axle weights of course!

Quoted from the regs (in full), Look at the bold sections.

(1) A goods vehicle falls within this paragraph if it forms part of a vehicle combination, other than an articulated combination, and the combination is such that—
(a) in a case where all the vehicles comprised in it, or all of those vehicles except any small trailer, have relevant plated weights, the aggregate of the relevant plated weights of those vehicles, exclusive of any such trailer, does not exceed 3.5 tonnes, or
(b) in any other case, the aggregate of the unladen weights of the vehicles comprised in the combination, exclusive of any small trailer, does not exceed 1525 kilograms.
(2) In this paragraph “small trailer” means a trailer having an unladen weight not exceeding 1020 kilograms.

If the trailer ULW is less than 1020Kg then it is NOT counted in the weight calculations, irrespective of what the actual or even the plated weight of the trailer is. Our trailer's plate gives a MAM of 1500kg, max payload of 1100Kg, ergo ULW is 400Kg and is therefore exempt from the weight calculation.

Please don't take offence Tony, I'm not trying to be 'clever' here, but I think there is (understandably) a lot of misinformation out there, as the regs are so hard to fathom.

[Dry_Doc]

Righty then,

I've finally had written confirmation that we are exempt from having an o-licence due to the ULW of the trailer being under 1020kg.

We are also exempt from using a tacho provided that:

a) we operate within a 50km radius of our 'base of operations'

b) the driver of the tow vehicle is a member of the boat crew - i.e. the driver's main activity is not the actual driving.

This is under the derogation from the EU driver's hours rules previously cited in this thread.

We may however fall under the domestic driver's rules but only if we are driving for more than 4 hours in a day (unlikey if we're limited to 50km).