DVLA licence categories and Commercial towing.

[Nos4r2]

For reference here's the licence categories on Pdf for anyone interested.
You need a tacho fitted and an operators licence for anything used commercially where the train weight is over 3500kg-see this link page 10.

[CJL]

Just found this on the Highways Agency's website - http://www.highways.gov.uk/knowledge/16293.aspx

Worth a look.

You can download the "Fit to tow" video here http://www.gttowing.co.uk/about_trailers_fittotow.php

Chris

[Jono Garton]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

You need a tacho fitted and an operators licence for anything used commercially where the train weight is over 3500kg-see this link page 10.

In my opinion not strictly true, You need a tacho fitted and an operators licence for anything used for carriage of goods (for gain and reward) where the train weight is over 3500kg.

Jono

[Dry_Doc]

I've been looking into this recently: http://rib.net/forum/showthread.php?t=28857

The upshot seems to be that you don't need an o-licence if:

The tow vehicle is less than 3500Kg and the trailer ULW is less than 1020Kg - Even if the GTW exceeds 3500Kg, the trailer is classed as a 'small' trailer and is ignored for the purposes of calculating weights.
Or:

The tow vehicle is a 'dual purpose vehicle (e.g. Land Rovers) & their trailers'.


This info is from here: http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosacorp/repo...74%2009-08.pdf pages 30-32

[Tim M]

I'm still really confused about this, after a conversation with someone who got pulled over and fined for not having a tacho, and seeing a thing on motorway cops or what ever its called on BBC1 where a bloke got pulled over and told he should have a tacho for towing a car on a trailer with a 110.

Do you need a tacho if you are towing boats on trailers around for your business (that is, boats owned by the business, not customers boats) and you are using your own privately owed car?

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by Tim M

I'm still really confused about this, after a conversation with someone who got pulled over and fined for not having a tacho, and seeing a thing on motorway cops or what ever its called on BBC1 where a bloke got pulled over and told he should have a tacho for towing a car on a trailer with a 110.

Do you need a tacho if you are towing boats on trailers around for your business (that is, boats owned by the business, not customers boats) and you are using your own privately owed car?

The police don't have a bloody clue either from what you've just said.


Somehow I doubt if it's your own private car would come into it as it's being used for business purposes. You're more likely to run into insurance issues if you try and use that as a mitigating factor (unless your insurance covers it).
I certainly wouldn't say that as you're likely to find them ringing your insurance company to check. If you get a jobsworth they will do this. I've seen it done.

[Tim M]

I'm not worried about the insurance side of things; I have business insurance on the car and they are aware it's used for towing.

My question was more to do with the tacho side of things; do I need one or not

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by Tim M

I'm not worried about the insurance side of things; I have business insurance on the car and they are aware it's used for towing.

My question was more to do with the tacho side of things; do I need one or not

After a bit of reading I'm fairly sure you don't.
You don't want to go down the 'it's my private car' route though as if it's insured for business use and you're in the process of using it to tow a boat owned by your business it's for all intents and purposes a vehicle in business use.

The updated version of the Vosa PDF is attached to this post-look at the title and the bottom of page 34.
Basically as far as I understand it , if you need a tacho, you need an O-licence and vice versa.
I'd print it out and carry with you-all 60+ pages of it.

[Dry_Doc]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

Basically as far as I understand it , if you need a tacho, you need an O-licence and vice versa.

Not true, see my earlier post in the thread.
For o-licence purposes, if the trailer ULW is less than 1020kg, it's ignored when calculating the GTW of the combo (p32, GV74). Also, passenger cars (including 'dual purpose' vehicles - i.e. 4x4s with more than 3 seats) under 3.5t are not subject to o-licences (p30/31, GV74)
This isn't the case for tachos, if the GTW of the tow vehicle and the trailer is over 3.5t (plated weight NOT the actual weight), and the tow vehicle is a goods vehicle, then you need a tacho - unless you fall under certain exemptions/derogations. It's all about as clear as mud.

This is useful: http://www.ntta.co.uk/law/tachographs/tachographs.aspx

[Tim M]

I'm still confused.

If I'm towing one of my charter RIBs to the slipway, is that "commercial carriage of goods"? (If yes, it would seem I need a tacho.)

[PeterM]

Originally Posted by Tim M

I'm still confused.

If I'm towing one of my charter RIBs to the slipway, is that "commercial carriage of goods"? (If yes, it would seem I need a tacho.)

I'd say no - you are not any kind of Taxi , courier or Haulage contractor - thats the simplest & most accurate way I have ever had to explain it between usage of vehicles.

They (the boats) are your own merchandise. You have to be able to get them to where you need them in order to then use them for commercial reward. No-one is paying you to tow the boats around - hence not commercial carriage of goods.

Yes you are towing in connection with your business.........

[Tim M]

If I do need one, there must be thousands of other small businesses out there also breaking the law. Think of all those builders, gardeners, mechanics etc towing cars, lawn mowers, rubble etc around.

Might ring VOSA tomorrow and see if I can get any sence out of them.

[Trailer Bloke]

Tim

Taking into account my past and present carreer path I have been told the following:

If you are towing your own craft there is not a problem

However if you are delivering a boat for someone for reward ie they are paying, you will need a tacho

[Dry_Doc]

Originally Posted by Tim M

I'm still confused.

If I'm towing one of my charter RIBs to the slipway, is that "commercial carriage of goods"? (If yes, it would seem I need a tacho.)

Yes it is commercial as you're doing it as part of your job.

There is a derogation that allows you to carry tools, materials and machinary for use in the course of your work within a 50km radius of your 'base' without needing a tacho.

[Nauti Buoy]

Ok

I just spoke with a very helpful chap from VOSA and asked the question if I am towing in our case a large flat bed trailer with floats for either sale, hire or on loan for demo would we require a tacho.

We have two tow vehicles a Mitsubuishi L200 and a Dicso 3, so the gross vehicle and trailer (when empty) combination would exceed 3500kg. Obviously when the trailer is loaded we are pushing 5000kg.

His comments were if we are using the trailer for business then we would need a tacho fitted to our vehicles.

I then asked ok so if say I had driven for 9hrs (in two 4.5hrs sections) then decided to drive home having delivered the goods towing home an empty trailer, would the drive home be classed as personal use or business use as technically as self employed I personally decide to drive home then in "personal time" what would the outcome be if stopped? His comment was "well thats a grey area"

He also said that Disco 3 are very hard to find a tacho for if they have one as they have had a lot of issues where tacho's have not worked properly in those vehicles and they have had to keep a "Manual Record"

Anyway hope that helps

[m chappelow]

Originally Posted by Nauti Buoy

Ok


I then asked ok so if say I had driven for 9hrs (in two 4.5hrs sections) then decided to drive home having delivered the goods towing home an empty trailer, would the drive home be classed as personal use or business use as technically as self employed I personally decide to drive home then in "personal time" what would the outcome be if stopped? His comment was "well thats a grey area"



:

Dont know if it still applies you were allowed to drive up to 10 hours a day twice a week from the normal 9 hours per day ,,,,as long as you made up for it the following weekly rest period .
and in some cases depending on weight with some small vans /pick ups ect though you may not have use a taco for the driving hour regs it may still need to be fitted with one .

[ROG.]

Has anyone got the new O licence rules that were introduced late 2011?

Form what I gather, The 1020 unladen trailer rules no longer applies to those with full O licences but does still apply to those with restricted O licences ......

In regard to another post on this thread ...
Commercially driving to point B requires the corresponding drive back to point A - it cannot be commercial one way and private the other - the EU regs are clear on this point

[Dry_Doc]

Originally Posted by ROG.

Has anyone got the new O licence rules that were introduced late 2011?

Form what I gather, The 1020 unladen trailer rules no longer applies to those with full O licences but does still apply to those with restricted O licences ......

Just looking at it now (Dec 2011 revision).

As far as I can make out, the 1020kg exemption is still there unless you're carrying other people's goods for hire or reward (e.g. a courier service). If you're carrying your own goods/equipment then the exemption still applies.

[AMac]

If towing a piece of equipment used in the day to day running of your business you need neither a tachometer or o licence

[SW Boat Transport]

Originally Posted by AMac

If towing a piece of equipment used in the day to day running of your business you need neither a tachometer or o licence

The correct wording of the exemption is: "Vehicle is not over 7500kg GVW or is part of a combination of vehicles not over 7500 kg combined GVW which is used to carry materials equipment or machinery for the driver's use in the course of his work within a 50 km radius of base and where driving is not the driver's main activity"