Led Trailer lights

[jeffstevens763@g]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

more or less. LEDs are far more robust & reliable than filament bulbs, so failures should be much less of an issue, that's the point in going "LED" in the first place. Until car manufacturers pull their fingers out & sort out the car side electrickery, we'll still have to resort to frigging & bodging. Ironically, it's the higher end marques that seem to have the biggest issues with LEDs.

So not wanting to sound an old fart it's not legal as a repeater warning buzzer/light should be on the dash to warn of failure.(insurance would be an issue for me with my luck)
Looked on a caravan forum same thing there apart from there is LEDs that are comparable with the cam bus problem not sure if that's correct but your right seems to be the vehicles with all the electronics.my shogan blew two brake light bulbs simultaneously back to the garage to reset it and remove a thousand warning lights off the dash
as for me I am bining the LEDs going back to the old board never had much problem with them anyway I carry a full light cluster and swap out takes only 5 mins if I get problems.
Cheers for the reply and info Dave

Jeff

[Nasher]

Jeff

Hi

The warning light to show the indicators are working does flash on the dash on my disco with the setup I've put together.
It amuses me every time as the symbol that flashes is a small Sankey like trailer.

Nasher

[Pikey Dave]

The warning light does work, Jeffs point (quite correct btw) is if the Led fails, the dash light will still flash because the electronics are seeing the resistor, not the led. So technically it could be construed as being illegal, as the dash light will be telling you that the bulb is good , when in fact it ain't. Like I said, the car manufacturers need to get their act together, it's only going to get worse.


.....sh1t happens.......

[jeffstevens763@g]

Just done a bit more digging indispention offer a box for £19 so sent a mail saying light board don't work do I need something else to see if they come back with the legal fix?
I will also ring tomorrow and post what they say
You guys have it sorted to suit you but it should be a lot easier than having to fit resistors in,the board I bought had no warning that it needed accessories or any explanation of any kind and asking the question in the first place has peeeed me off.


Cheers

[jeffstevens763@g]

update indispension don't know basically theirs is a three wire system so as Dave says covers the indicators i suspect only £18.85 part EL533 smart box.
towing and trailers better description 7 wire system £26.53 part ETR02 smart relay.


cheers

[9D280]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

Fancy Canbus module = thick end of £300

WHIT?

Man you need to swap that thing for a Mondeo!

Westfalia dedicated Can Kit for same - £70.
(there has to be a plus to driving urban camouflage! )

Originally Posted by jeffstevens763@g

So if in parallel and the LED blows no warning on the dash as its bridged by the resistor

Now, this is where it gets weird.....
I have a "plate / reversing" light board on the A- frame. (simply down to the geometry of my trailer - no space on the permanent clusters without serious risk of destroying it on launch / garaging. - and It's legal - the Number plate just needs lit - no height restrictions on it ) It carries 2 standard plate illumination fittings with filament lamps - in parallel with the LED Tail lights. Why filament? 'coz I couldn't justify the cost of LEDS up there for something that is unlikely to see much abuse. (2 circuits to keep the L&R independence)

Also carries a high level LED brake light, so no filaments In the brake circuit.... and no disco brake lights either.

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by 9D280

WHIT?

Man you need to swap that thing for a Mondeo!

Westfalia dedicated Can Kit for same - £70.
(there has to be a plus to driving urban camouflage! )

The irony is, the fancy module did bugger all. The issue was resolved, as normal, with 4 quids worth of resistors.

[9D280]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

The irony is, the fancy module did bugger all. The issue was resolved, as normal, with 4 quids worth of resistors.

Which isn't entirely surprising -

The CAN module talks to the car. The CAN dside of it tells the car that there's a trailer connected (so the car's computers can switch off the rear park sensors, adjust the anti skid control / hill decent /etc and put a nice message on your dashboard display saying you have lost a bulb when it happens.....)

How the module can figure out if the trailer is connected or not and / or that a bulb has failed is the issue that your resistors fix.

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by 9D280

Which isn't entirely surprising -



The CAN module talks to the car. The CAN dside of it tells the car that there's a trailer connected (so the car's computers can switch off the rear park sensors, adjust the anti skid control / hill decent /etc and put a nice message on your dashboard display saying you have lost a bulb when it happens.....)



How the module can figure out if the trailer is connected or not and / or that a bulb has failed is the issue that your resistors fix.

Nope. With the module fitted & no resistors, the Disco just didn't recognise the trailer. The parking sensors still worked, you could select off road height without getting the warning message about there being a trailer attached, nada! As sip as I fitted the resistors, everything worked as it should. My previous home made led lightboard just had the resistors & no fancy module & it worked fine.


.....sh1t happens.......

[jeffstevens763@g]

Tech bloke from indispention rang today they don't have any bother with the shogan unless the tow bar fitters use their own repeater relay and not Mitsubishi guess what! Yea so back to old light board.

[9D280]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

Nope. With the module fitted & no resistors, the Disco just didn't recognise the trailer. The parking sensors still worked, you could select off road height without getting the warning message about there being a trailer attached, nada! As sip as I fitted the resistors, everything worked as it should. My previous home made led lightboard just had the resistors & no fancy module & it worked fine.

But that's my point - the module is the interface - if it can't detect the trailer, why would it tell the car there is a trailer there?

What your resistors are doing is making sure the "obviously really not designed for LED" trailer lighting module can see something that looks like a traditional bulb. I suspect the LED cluster type (as in what manufacturer etc) will also play a big part in your issue. It would be interesting to see if you could get a different LED board & see if it does the same thing..... or if your board is detected by mine..... and all the other combinations!


Parallel story for illustration:
- I had a (rather badly designed) 13 pin plug dissassemble itself on me somewhere between the House & the Real Food Cafe in Tyndrum. First I knew of it was when the reverse sensors went ballistic when I parked. - The entire back end of the plug had unclipped from the bayonet and was swinging merrily on the end of the wire. (bayonet still locked in the car socket). Needless to say that plug was replaced at the first opportunity later that afternoon!


This also is another rant of mine - certainly about Fords, don't know if other makes do the same - but the indicator bulb failure is treated same as a car bulb failure - it flashes fast. So if the whole plug works loose and the car then can't "see" the trailer.....

How difficult would it be to light a light or put a symbol on the multieverything display to say a trailer is connected?

/rant


I honestly think we and caravanning forums will be seeing threads like this until EVERY trailer module supplier & OEM recognise that LEDS are here to stay and the black boxes of electronics are going to have to work with them.

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by 9D280

But that's my point - the module is the interface - if it can't detect the trailer, why would it tell the car there is a trailer there?

What your resistors are doing is making sure the "obviously really not designed for LED" trailer lighting module can see something that looks like a traditional bulb. I suspect the LED cluster type (as in what manufacturer etc) will also play a big part in your issue. It would be interesting to see if you could get a different LED board & see if it does the same thing..... or if your board is detected by mine..... and all the other combinations!


Parallel story for illustration:
- I had a (rather badly designed) 13 pin plug dissassemble itself on me somewhere between the House & the Real Food Cafe in Tyndrum. First I knew of it was when the reverse sensors went ballistic when I parked. - The entire back end of the plug had unclipped from the bayonet and was swinging merrily on the end of the wire. (bayonet still locked in the car socket). Needless to say that plug was replaced at the first opportunity later that afternoon!


This also is another rant of mine - certainly about Fords, don't know if other makes do the same - but the indicator bulb failure is treated same as a car bulb failure - it flashes fast. So if the whole plug works loose and the car then can't "see" the trailer.....

How difficult would it be to light a light or put a symbol on the multieverything display to say a trailer is connected?

/rant


I honestly think we and caravanning forums will be seeing threads like this until EVERY trailer module supplier & OEM recognise that LEDS are here to stay and the black boxes of electronics are going to have to work with them.

I think there's some confusion here. This is the module that is fitted. The trailer came without any fancy box of tricks, just the LED lights. Plugging these into the Disco worked to a point. The lights worked, brake light, indicators, side lights etc. But the car did not recognise the trailer was attached. On my old boat, I built my own LED lighting board & had the same results until I fitted the resistors to the indicators, then all worked fine. The disco sends a low Voltage pulse around 1/sec through the indicator circuits. The pulse is too short & too low a Voltage to light a traditional filament bulb, but the LEDs pick it up & start strobing. The car is looking for a filament bulb resistance which on a 21W indicator bulb is around 6 Ohm. When I spoke to the trailer supplier about the issue, he said not to worry, he had this magic box which solved the problem & he'd send me one, which he duly did. The module sits inline with the trailer plug. Car/trailer plug is wired in one side, LEDs are wired in the outgoing side. What the module is supposed to do, is sit on the end of the trailer lighting cable. The car sees this as a conventional trailer & assumes that the trailer is attached. The module receives the lighting inputs from the car & drives the relevant LEDs on the trailer, everybody's happy...that's the theory On the Disco this didn't work, I still had to put the resistors in on the car side of the module. I'm assuming that the Disco isn't using a Can-Bus signal to detect the trailer, it looks like a simple analogue LV pulse or a combination of the 2

[9D280]

AAAAhhhhhh Ok. I thougt the "module" you were talking about was the trailer lighting module in the Disco.

So,
- Without the "processor", your trailer lights go disco?
- You presumably therefore have the trailer lighting hooked straight to the loom? (i.e no module in the Disco?
- I don't know the DIsco to this level, but how does it do bulb failure indication? Beeps / Lights on the dash as in the old relay style or do you get an on screen message / fast flashing like a lamp on the Disco has gone?



I'm going to take a slight tangent here.....

Where does the cabling to the socket on the hitch come from?

You said the park sensors etc didn't switch off etc. That says to me that the Disco probably should have a module that it doesn't have..... Was the hitch a delaer fit?

I got the place that sold me my Mondeo to fit the hitch. After three separate "and you are absolutely sure this is the dedicated Westfalia / Ford Can talking module?" questions (....'coz I can't buy the module for the price you are offering to fit the whole lot for so I am a bit suspicious)..... and guess what. I plug the trailer in and out of the boot comes "beeeeep.....beeeeep.....beeeeep......".

"but it is for the Mondeo sir, look......" (yep, and for every other car on the planet that a bypass relay will stop the lamp failure warning flashing.......



I think you might be missing a module.....

Land Rover Discovery Towbar Wiring Kits

Looking at this if you have a Disco 4 the fitter would need to have poked your can bus to tell the Disco the module was present....


FWIW I got one of these fitted.
Ford Mondeo All Models 13 Pin Dedicated Wiring Kit Jun 2007 on 29060515RC
(note it has a "yes" on the Trailer LED box, but go up a level in the shop and not all Mondeo modules do - so you canlt generalise!)

[Pikey Dave]

The Disco towing electrics are factory fit. The actual towing kit consists of a couple of prewired sockets & a couple of relays that plug into the loom behind the NS rear light cluster. The warning light is built into the dash as per Nashers post. The towing electrics have to be enabled by the dealer or someone with software & cable. Mine were all factory done. Absolutely no problem with conventional trailer boards, just LEDs that are the issue.


.....sh1t happens.......

[mick]

Originally Posted by 9D280

But that's my point - the module is the interface - if it can't detect the trailer, why would it tell the car there is a trailer there?



What your resistors are doing is making sure the "obviously really not designed for LED" trailer lighting module can see something that looks like a traditional bulb. I suspect the LED cluster type (as in what manufacturer etc) will also play a big part in your issue. It would be interesting to see if you could get a different LED board & see if it does the same thing..... or if your board is detected by mine..... and all the other combinations!





Parallel story for illustration:

- I had a (rather badly designed) 13 pin plug dissassemble itself on me somewhere between the House & the Real Food Cafe in Tyndrum. First I knew of it was when the reverse sensors went ballistic when I parked. - The entire back end of the plug had unclipped from the bayonet and was swinging merrily on the end of the wire. (bayonet still locked in the car socket). Needless to say that plug was replaced at the first opportunity later that afternoon!





This also is another rant of mine - certainly about Fords, don't know if other makes do the same - but the indicator bulb failure is treated same as a car bulb failure - it flashes fast. So if the whole plug works loose and the car then can't "see" the trailer.....



How difficult would it be to light a light or put a symbol on the multieverything display to say a trailer is connected?



/rant





I honestly think we and caravanning forums will be seeing threads like this until EVERY trailer module supplier & OEM recognise that LEDS are here to stay and the black boxes of electronics are going to have to work with them.

Buy a Defender chap plug in drive off 😜

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by 9D280

I think you might be missing a module.....

Land Rover Discovery Towbar Wiring Kits

If you look carefully at those kits, they aren't compatible with trailer LEDs

[9D280]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

If you look carefully at those kits, they aren't compatible with trailer LEDs

Yeah, that's my point..... I believe they (Westfalia) manufacture the tow kits for OEMs - if you look at the Ford link - only about 3 of the ones for Mondeo (and guess what - all post 07 when (I assume) things went "proper CAN") are "LED - yes"

Just had a quick look -
Defender No LED - No coding
Freelander - 1 & 3 - No LED or coding - 2 LED & coding
Disco 3 - No LED, No coding - 4 no LED but needs Coded.
Range Rover - again No LED bt a mish mash of coding or not

So, if you want hassle free LEDs and to stick with LR - Buy a Freelander 2!

A similar look at Ford:
Modeo - 2007 on Ok for LED
Focus 2011 on
Kuga 2013 on
Galaxty - 2006 on
Fiesta - 2008 on.

All bar the Fiesta need the vehicle coded.
My old focus went "disco" with the LEDS...... and it had a factory fit hitch.

[9D280]

Originally Posted by mick

Buy a Defender chap plug in drive off ��

Errr after I got the right module in the boot instead of some cr@ppy bypass relay that's exactly what I did!

And After my research for the above post I reckon that's coz the defender is likely still using the same electrical architecture of the Mk1 Landy!

(why change it if it works! )

[Simon666]

My Disco 3 had the usual problems with the LED lighting board.

The lights strobed with the signals produced by the canbus system, and the car could not detect the lights attached.

Solved.

Used a combination of a bypass relay to filter out the flashing, and some 6.8 ohm 50 watt resistors.
I now a have a switch in the boot which needs to be turned on when towing.

The car knows a trailer is attached, so the trailer light on the dash works. The rear parking sensors also are disabled.
I've also been told the car runs a different ABS and traction control program when trailer is attached too.

This is my wiring diagram...

[Sonar]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

NB no fog light...

Are these available as well somewhere.

LED Fog light units and also the number plate lights ?

Or even a complete set ..