2 stroke oil question

Mikefule · 22 February 2020, 20:20

Just got a nice little 2nd hand Johnson 3 hp 2 stroke.

I have no problem getting proper 2 stroke oil for the outboard. I live within 10 minutes of 2 marinas and within 20 minutes of an outboard service centre.

Just out of interest, though, what is the difference between the 2 stroke oil suitable for an outboard and good quality synthetic or semi synthetic 2 stroke oil suitable for a small motorbike?

The basic principle of the engine is the same. The petrol is the same. The ratio of 50:1 is the same. The need for lubrication is the same. The motorbike is even used in a very wet environment!

Is it just marketing, or is there a genuine difference?

ShinyShoe · 22 February 2020, 20:25

No there is a GENUINE difference in specification.

TCW3 is deisgned to run cooler (I'm assuming your 3hp is water cooled). Lawnmowers etc are air cooled and run hotter.

It may be possible the same oil could cover multiple specifications, but I suspect if it was, someone would be labelling it as "One oil for all uses"...

mikehhogg · 22 February 2020, 20:31

Very good question . My theory would be that's its a bit like marine spark plugs, they don't exist. I use shell nautilus mainly because I have been a fan of shell products not the company.A lot of outboard manufactures will specify 2t oils in order to comply with warranty. It will be interesting to see other responses

willk · 22 February 2020, 21:06

"Outboard two stroke oil" isn't a thing. Depends on the outboard. The vast majority require a 2 stroke oil to the TC-W3 spec. As Shiney says, designed to run efficiently at cool(er) temps than the stuff you put in a motorbike. That said, there are many small aircooled outboards on the go that run on motorbike oils. Some 2 stroke outboards run on a higher spec synthetic version of TC-W3.

Garden tool oil is different spec to motorbike oil as well.

mikehhogg · 22 February 2020, 21:34

TC-W3 is a trademark, not a spec like mil. there are lots of watercooled two stroke motorcycles that have ran fine for years on good old mineral based two stroke oils. Maybe I am just old school.

HDAV · 22 February 2020, 21:43

Read all about it https://www.nmma.org/certification/oil/tc-w3

mikehhogg · 22 February 2020, 21:45

HDAV if you read it you will see they own the trademark.

HDAV · 22 February 2020, 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikehhogg

HDAV if you read it you will see they own the trademark.

And that was never in question.........it’s an approval rating system nothing wrong with that nmea set the process companies choose to pay for there product to be tested for approval or not.... doesn’t mean a none tc-w3 oil is garbage......... like any approval system it’s optional, just means it hasn’t been tested to and met the criteria set out by the nmea...... however of the manufacturer recommends approved oil it would be wise to follow that guidance.....

You can use whatever you like

Pikey Dave · 22 February 2020, 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikehhogg

TC-W3 is a trademark, not a spec like mil. there are lots of watercooled two stroke motorcycles that have ran fine for years on good old mineral based two stroke oils. Maybe I am just old school.

TC-W3 isn’t a trade mark, it’s a standard/specification, call it what you will, that has been protected by a trademark. There’s a difference.

HDAV · 23 February 2020, 08:52

^meant nmma damn auto correct ....

Mikefule · 23 February 2020, 09:02

Thanks for the replies. Interesting. I hadn't thought about the different running temperatures.

I used to ride my air cooled MZ 2 stroke i all weathers from frost and snow up to uncomfortably hot in leathers, in the dry and in pouring rain, and chugging around town at 20 mph and doing 2 hours at a time flat out on the motorway. I used the same oil for all of this, although the engine had autolube, which adjusted the percentage of oil at different throttle settings.

My new little 2 stroke is a 3hp 2 cylinder, water cooled which will mainly be used for an hour or so here and there on the river at mid revs. I suspect that any good quality oil would be more or less as good as any other as it is such a basic utility engine.

However, as I said, getting the right stuff isn't a problem. I was only asking out of "scientific interest". I had wondered if it was like shampoo, where the main differences are the dye, the scent, and the label.

GuyC · 23 February 2020, 11:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikefule

I had wondered if it was like shampoo, where the main differences are the dye, the scent, and the label.

I don't think it's like shampoo at all. Whilst sadly It has been a long time since I've needed shampoo, I think its purpose is to make your hair cleaner and less greasy. I don't think 2T oil would do that regardless of the specification.

Mikefule · 23 February 2020, 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuyC

I don't think it's like shampoo at all. Whilst sadly It has been a long time since I've needed shampoo, I think its purpose is to make your hair cleaner and less greasy. I don't think 2T oil would do that regardless of the specification.

jwalker · 23 February 2020, 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuyC

I don't think it's like shampoo at all. Whilst sadly It has been a long time since I've needed shampoo, I think its purpose is to make your hair cleaner and less greasy. I don't think 2T oil would do that regardless of the specification.

Bloody'ell, a bit of fun on Ribnet...whatever next!?

beamishken · 23 February 2020, 18:01

There was a guy posting on here a while ago who ran an independent oil blending company. His take on it was the tcw3 rating is a pretty poor grade of oil & most good quality motorcycle oils actually smash the tcw3 rating. The reason most dont say they meet the requirements is it costs the manufacturers to be able to use the tcw3 label.
Think about it many 2 stroke motorbikes are water cooled but are reving to 15 or 16,000 rpm, double what the average outboard revs to. That said I always use a marine oil purely because its often cheaper than a quality motorcycle oil

Fenlander · 24 February 2020, 01:12

I must admit as a small OB user oil cost for a 2-stroke is never an issue so not only do I keep to the TC-W3 spec I use branded oil for the particular OB.

There is one issue not mentioned above which is not crucial to Mikefule on the river but it is one I consider… engine internal corrosion as our use is 90% on the sea where the engine is constantly pulling in salty air. The TC-W3 spec includes consideration of the corrosion issue.

ribber · 24 February 2020, 07:29

Not really relevant to this debate, but this Guy on youtube (if you can put up with his voice) does various tests for fun, i.e. running 4 stroke oil in a 2 stroke engine.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4J76MgdyQc

GuyC · 24 February 2020, 07:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenlander

... as a small OB user ...

Don't beat yourself up about it - 4' 6" is nothing to be ashamed of.

Below is an old thread and maybe the one that beamishken is talking about.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forum...88&type=thread

It seems oil choice is a cause of significant debate on the various forums.

Interesting, in a geeky way. TC-W3 as beamishken has said seems to be a relatively low grade and consequently lower priced oil than the 2T oil you get in modern 2T motorcycles.

Fenlander · 24 February 2020, 08:33

>>>TC-W3 as beamishken has said seems to be a relatively low grade and consequently lower priced oil than the 2T oil you get in modern 2T motorcycles.

I'd say they're not stating it's a low grade as such (as in performing less well) but the correct grade for the 2-stroke OBs that specify it. Using a "higher" grade motorcycle oil would not be ideal for most OBs and may give a lower grade result.

>>> 2 stroke motorbikes are water cooled but are reving to 15 or 16,000 rpm, double what the average outboard revs to.

Yep and that's why the ideal oil for that bike use may not be ideal for an outboard that is often somewhat over-cooled and may run long periods at low revs unlike a bike.

bomberman · 08 March 2020, 08:05

I did look into this a little a couple of years back as I sent the wife to get some oil and she came back with a non marine spec oil (never send the organ grinder to do the monkeys job!!). As has been already highlighted as far as I recall it was temp related...with most ob's being water cooled and also additives for corrosion protection in the marine specific 2 stroke oils. Up until that point I had never considered there would have been a difference (maybe I am just a sucker for scaremonger marketing hype.....didn't figure it was worth the risk when on the sea especially as the organ grinder doesn't go out alone!!!)