2nd trip in our SIB

[moore288]

It's a great idea to wear life jackets. Good modern ones are comfy, light and of course keep you safe. So not everyone has worn them every time in the past. Wear them I the future though, they are a good thing :-)

[IanH]

Originally Posted by moore288

It's a great idea to wear life jackets. Good modern ones are comfy, light and of course keep you safe.

And a great fashion statement for some...

[57Aircooled]

can someone point to to other treads on this one (subject)
i can see all your points and accept i may be pig ignorant , but willing to learn etc
i see it like wearing a helmet, safety belt walking down the street in case a car hits me, a fooking good idea but not real

[ShinyShoe]

What the OP may not know is that MustRib (Andy) has a little experience of going for an accidental swim. Yes that was in rougher water not a harbour. But numerous other RIBs made exactly the same journey as Andy an hour before him and didn't send any of their occupants for a swim. Based on that information Andy should have taken off his lifejacket and said "no need - there is a low risk of going for a swim" - Had he done that I doubt he'd be here to post today...

Pretty sure when he left Milford Haven that afternoon he didn't for one second think he was going to be pressing the "big red button" on his PLB, have a S&R operation involving a ferry, 2 lifeboats and a helicopter and then be pulled from the water by the chopper. However if he'd thought he wasn't going to need his PLB he could have left it in the locker. He wouldn't have been able to grab it as he flipped over the side...

But I guess you are just as bad as the numerous cyclists I pass almost every night when I drive home in the dark who seem not to own lights, high vis or anthing else to stop me accidentally mowign them down...

[ShinyShoe]

Originally Posted by 57Aircooled

i see it like wearing a helmet, safety belt walking down the street in case a car hits me, a fooking good idea but not real

More like wearing a helmet on a motorbike.

[xs 400]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

More like wearing a helmet on a motorbike.

or a condom!

[frankc]

I see the disconnect here, as a 4+ meter, 90 HP is listed as the boat of the one so concerned about wearing the PFD which is a rig of no use whatsoever for my purposes. I would wear one on that rig also, but a much smaller boat with much less HP is a different animal completely, especially when used in calm water.

We had Class 1 jackets on the offshore rigs, but Class 2 on the river boats. Inflatables and class 3 or 4 are used on kayaks. As 90-95 deg F is common much of the year here, all but the inflatables are very hot to wear. We do boat 12 months out of the year. Try throwing a cast net or shooting a shotgun with about any jacket and you will experience problems. Any but the inflatables restrict movement in addition to being hot to wear. That can get you in trouble.

The problem comes in when someone familiar with one set of conditions insists that his is the only way to look at a subject. That is not a reasonable position.

The only problem with the OP is that he did not have enough PFDs of the proper size for all on board. That is a big no-no, but not wearing them under slow, calm conditions is nothing to get concerned about.

[John Kennett]

Originally Posted by frankc

As 90-95 deg F is common much of the year here, all but the inflatables are very hot to wear.

Presumably cold water shock isn't a big hazard where you boat. It is a major factor in UK waters though, and means that it is a good idea to wear a lifejacket even when the conditions appear to be benign.

The problem comes in when someone familiar with one set of conditions insists that his is the only way to look at a subject. That is not a reasonable position.

The only problem with the OP is that he did not have enough PFDs of the proper size for all on board. That is a big no-no, but not wearing them under slow, calm conditions is nothing to get concerned about.

I refer you to your previous comment!

[MustRib]

Originally Posted by 57Aircooled

can someone point to to other treads on this one (subject)
i can see all your points and accept i may be pig ignorant , but willing to learn etc
i see it like wearing a helmet, safety belt walking down the street in case a car hits me, a fooking good idea but not real

I wouldn't want to suggest that wearing a lifejacket and having fun on the water are mutually exclusive, and I dont have any expectation that you will take anything you read on here that seriously, but if as you say, your willing to learn , consider taking a PB level 2 course, and why not have a chat with the local RNLI sea safety bod. The course costs money but is well worth it. A chat with the RNLI sea safety guy for your area is free.
It may not seem like it to you - but the advice on here is well intentioned.
Take care and enjoy the boat.

[ShinyShoe]

Originally Posted by frankc

I see the disconnect here, as a 4+ meter, 90 HP is listed as the boat of the one so concerned about wearing the PFD which is a rig of no use whatsoever for my purposes. I would wear one on that rig also, but a much smaller boat with much less HP is a different animal completely, especially when used in calm water.

Is there a difference? In the UK almost everyone uses either a Bouyancy Aid or an Inflating Lifejacket. I see pics from the States with big bulky orange things. In the UK those are almost exclusively reserved for donning only in an emergency. US Classes don't mean much to me but I've never found either a bouyancy aid or an inflatable lifejacket obtrusive.

As 90-95 deg F is common much of the year here, all but the inflatables are very hot to wear. We do boat 12 months out of the year. Try throwing a cast net or shooting a shotgun with about any jacket and you will experience problems.

Its <60F in the air today in most of the UK. Water temp is more like 12-16C at the moment. As a WAFI who dinghy sails, I'd say on average I wear a dry suit 90% of the time I sail even though I very rarely accidentally end up in the water. The other 10% its too hot for a dry suit so I wear a wet suit. Only 1 day this year have I thought I should just have worn shorts and t-shirt...

I don't even want to know why you would think these guys would be shooting a shotgun in a tiny rubber tinghy with 2 kids on board...

Any but the inflatables restrict movement in addition to being hot to wear. That can get you in trouble.

So wear an inflatable.

The problem comes in when someone familiar with one set of conditions insists that his is the only way to look at a subject. That is not a reasonable position.

Almost all the posters are UK based, know what UK weather and water conditions are like. We may not know that particular harbour but we are saying we wouldn't change our rule for any water area... inland lake where I sail - 100% PFD use at all times. Canal I'd wear a PFD at all times on deck.

The only problem with the OP is that he did not have enough PFDs of the proper size for all on board. That is a big no-no, but not wearing them under slow, calm conditions is nothing to get concerned about.

Originally Posted by 57Aircooled

Or the only problem could be those two kids get knocked over board by something unforeseen happening and the OP has to go pick them up... providing the unforeseen didn't also kock him over or disable the boat.

Jazz & Tyler got stuck in the sinking mud before we even got in the boat.

It all went wrong as we returned,the tide was coming in really fast and we grounded out,

I fell off the launch jetty and then Tyler face planted the mud

Because all that sounds like the OP has a good track record of things going exactly to plan and so we should all take his recommendation about the way things should be done.

[kerny]

Originally Posted by IanH

And a great fashion statement for some...

Yeah a bit like some brand of dry suits

[frankc]

Guess I should have explained the classes, as I did not think about the difference between US and British standards. The big ugly orange vests are type 1 which will turn an unconscious wearer face up in pretty ugly water. They are used primarily for offshore work. The type 2 may turn an unconscious user face up and should be used in sheltered waters only. Our inflatables come in different series from basically a simple floatation device to ones similar to the type 1. If you use an inflatable not capable of turning a person face up, you still may drown. Unfortunately some people pulled from the water wearing a floatation device have drowned.

Hypothermia is a real problem, so anyone boating where it would be probable should certainly wear the proper attire. But I thought the subject was not wearing a PFD in calm water at slow speed?

The shotguns were primarily used from a canoe duck hunting in calm water, not when joy riding in calm water with the family.

There is a tremendous difference from running at high speed in a small craft in the open ocean and cruising at slow speed in sheltered waters. The faster you go and the rougher the water, the faster you can get yourself in trouble. A lookout in calm water should have ample time to care for his crew.

[tony t]

Originally Posted by frankc

Guess I should have explained the classes, as I did not think about the difference between US and British standards. The big ugly orange vests are type 1 which will turn an unconscious wearer face up in pretty ugly water. They are used primarily for offshore work. The type 2 may turn an unconscious user face up and should be used in sheltered waters only. Our inflatables come in different series from basically a simple floatation device to ones similar to the type 1. If you use an inflatable not capable of turning a person face up, you still may drown. Unfortunately some people pulled from the water wearing a floatation device have drowned. Hypothermia is a real problem, so anyone boating where it would be probable should certainly wear the proper attire. But I thought the subject was not wearing a PFD in calm water at slow speed? The shotguns were primarily used from a canoe duck hunting in calm water, not when joy riding in calm water with the family. There is a tremendous difference from running at high speed in a small craft in the open ocean and cruising at slow speed in sheltered waters. The faster you go and the rougher the water, the faster you can get yourself in trouble. A lookout in calm water should have ample time to care for his crew.

You don't put your kids at risk no matter where or what your on.

Rule 1. Where a life jacket at all times

[steco1958]

On occasions this year, I have ribbed on the Warwickshire Avon (River) max speed 5 knots (I Believe), always, but always insisted all people wear their LJ, even at that speed and the river being so flat, it does not stop you going overboard, you only need to be moving on the deck, and trip.

[Richardnhunt]

Worth trying to swim with a scared kid without one...

I've ( purposely) swum in my buoyancy aid with my 3 year old (in her life jacket) in benign waters. (We spend a lot of time boating - so wanted to acclimatise) - it was a nice warm day.

With that ba on (& hers), she managed to push me under as she used my head to try and get out the water! She is a strong swimmer (as am I) and spends happy hours in the pool.

I am glad that I make the choice to always wear buoyancy - reduces the chances of ever having to explain why I have lost a loved one for the sake of.....; well, can't really see what is gained.

(And yes - older kids/ adults will panic when dumped over the side unexpectedly etc)

[IanH]

I'll reiterate about the cold. In former life when I was fit and young, I was an RYA sailing instructor so wearing life jackets had been ingrained in me since my first water encounters at age 10.

I never wore wetsuit except on a handful of occasions as safety boat was always a minute away and land swim able distance. However, one day, I decided to take boat to Queen Mary reservoir and we were only sailing boat out on water. On that day I was wearing wet suit (buoyancy aid was a given). Time of year was not summer, but not winter either, possibly this time of year (end of school holidays), but it was a long time ago and I cannot really remember.

Anyway, we turtled (inverted) the boat and the dagger board disappeared through the centre of the boat leaving us with no way of righting the boat without one of us (me) diving under to retrieve.

I reiterate, I was young, fit and the water was not cold (although blowing a hooley) and I was wearing a wet suit.

However, within a few minutes, I was totally exhausted and I had to move from salvaging boat mode to preserving my life mode (my mate was fine as he had not exhausted himself diving under the boat to push dagger board back up). I ended up so cold that I had to curl up in a ball and hang on to one of the sheets (ropes). I simply did not have the energy to hang on to something more solid.

If I had not been wearing a buoyancy aid, I probably would have drowned in the time between capsizing and the QM rescue boat picking us up.

It was an inland piece of water, yet still quite a chop in the occasional place, enough to bounce your kids out of your boat if hitting a rough patch.

I've never had a problem wearing a lifejacket but then, I've been wearing them since age 10. My new life jacket fits so well, I don't even know I'm wearing it and it certainly doesn't restrict my movement or make me hot.

Please at very least buy floatations devices for your kids and insist they wear them from the moment they set foot over water - yes even on pontoons - I've seen someone fall off a pontoon and hit their head on way in. Thankfully not a serious accident, but only luck meant that they could recover themselves from the water and not rely on their lifejacket.

Where's Tyler? In the time taken for the penny to drop and for you to realise they are in the water, they could have drowned.

[postie]

Originally Posted by Richardnhunt

Worth trying to swim with a scared kid without one...

I've ( purposely) swum in my buoyancy aid with my 3 year old (in her life jacket) in benign waters. (We spend a lot of time boating - so wanted to acclimatise) - it was a nice warm day.

With that ba on (& hers), she managed to push me under as she used my head to try and get out the water! She is a strong swimmer (as am I) and spends happy hours in the pool.

I am glad that I make the choice to always wear buoyancy - reduces the chances of ever having to explain why I have lost a loved one for the sake of.....; well, can't really see what is gained.

(And yes - older kids/ adults will panic when dumped over the side unexpectedly etc)

I have done a fair bit of open water swimming and the situation you describe above is what scares me. There are plenty of articles on "the mammalian dive reflex" and help you understand what happens when you enter the water. It takes me three or four times at the beginning of the season (triathlon) to get used to open water and the temperature. I wear a specialist wetsuit and I have backup this can still go wrong. It's the reaction to being in the water that is the most dangerous. The folks on here mean well and have the welfare of all at heart. Delivery of that message is the key to how it is received.

[John Kennett]

Originally Posted by frankc

Hypothermia is a real problem, so anyone boating where it would be probable should certainly wear the proper attire. But I thought the subject was not wearing a PFD in calm water at slow speed?

Cold shock is not hypothermia. It's a far more urgent problem when you are immersed in cold water. It's unlikely to be on your risk assessment radar if you only boat in warm water, but anyone using small boats in temperate or cold climates really needs to understand how serious it can be.

"Cold Shock Response lasts for only about a minute after entering the water and refers to the affect that cold water has on your breathing. Initially, there is an automatic gasp reflex in response to rapid skin cooling. If the head goes underwater, water may be breathed into the lungs during the gasp. The result is simple: drowning. That’s one of the many benefits of a life jacket or PFD: it helps to keep your head above water during this critical first response."
4 PHASES OF COLD WATER IMMERSION

"The initial response to immersion is cold shock. It only lasts a few minutes but is the cause of many deaths."
http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollection...ypothermia.pdf

"Cold Water Shock occurs when a person experiences sudden immersion into water 15°C or below. Cold water can paralyze your muscles making it very difficult to put on a Lifejacket of PFD in the water, so it is very important that you are wearing one the entire time you are boating."
https://www.boatsmartcanada.com/cold...-immersion.htm

The problem comes in when someone familiar with one set of conditions insists that his is the only way to look at a subject. That is not a reasonable position.

Indeed.

[frankc]

Looks like we have another kill cord thread going here.

I have experienced turning turtle in 45 deg water, and that is an extremely dangerous position to be in. We had to climb into a tree, as there was no bank within reach. I agree that you must be extra careful in cold water, but that did not stop us from duck hunting. There is a certain amount of danger in any endeavor. If you do not understand that, you should stay home and watch TV. Even bath tubs claim injuries from time to time.

I also experienced hypothermia when getting thoroughly wet in cold weather, and that is the stuff of nightmares. You lose the ability to reason when that stuff hits you, so taking precautions is just common sense. Hunters suffer that fate at an alarming frequency without even being near the water.

As far as children in PFDs, my girls and grandchildren wore them constantly until the were superior swimmers. At this stage, conditions dictate whether or not PFDs are worn.

It is interesting that so many feel that just wearing a PFD prevents accidents. We had a case of a lady standing up in a moving boat recently as the boat went under a low bridge who was killed by impact with the bridge. There is no way to live completely in a cocoon, so we must depend on using our brains to determine what steps should be taken under whatever circumstances we are in. No one is allowed to stand at any speed in my boats except to manage fishing tackle and spoken notification is required before standing. No one is allowed to bow ride or be in a position where they could be tossed overboard. I emphasize one hand for the boat and one hand for you at all times. The helm is manned anytime the motor is running.

Someone noted the incidence of drowning reported by the Coast Guard. It was not noted how many men were found with the fly of their pants unzipped which contributes to that number. Several years ago, numbers for that activity were published which were alarming. Here again, careless behavior is demonstrated.

I have used boats since about 1949 for many different uses and understand that you have to keep your mind in gear when on the water. We have boated everywhere from far offshore to tiny creeks in various sizes of boats, kayaks, and canoes. For more years than I like to think about, I went solo far too many times. There was only one occasion when a PFD would have been good to have on, and that was in duck hunting where it would have been a real problem to wear.

You cannot depend on just whether or not you have on a PFD to keep you safe. You can depend on using your head to consider the circumstances and reacting accordingly however. I would invite someone who feels that a PFD must be worn constantly to boat with us under our conditions and find out that it can be a problem which inhibits you in certain activities. Common sense is a little uncommon I fear, and there are exceptions to any rule except keeping your mind in gear at all times.

[John Kennett]

Originally Posted by frankc

Looks like we have another kill cord thread going here.

Like the one where everyone agreed apart from one person who insisted on doggedly defending his unsafe practice?

It is interesting that so many feel that just wearing a PFD prevents accidents.

I've seen nothing that suggests that anyone here feels that way. Have I missed something?

There was only one occasion when a PFD would have been good to have on, and that was in duck hunting where it would have been a real problem to wear . . . I would invite someone who feels that a PFD must be worn constantly to boat with us under our conditions and find out that it can be a problem which inhibits you in certain activities.

Duck hunting is a bit of a niche activity round here. Apart from operating in extremely hot conditions (which isn't relevant to the OP, and unfortunately isn't to most of us here either) what reason is there not to wear an inflatable lifejacket any time you're out in a small boat?

Common sense is a little uncommon I fear

I does appear that way sometimes