Bombard C5 Seam question.. - Page 2

Bodge · 20 April 2016, 06:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by office888

The engineer behind the boat may have decided to omit it as a cost savings to keep the product price lower.

If you are using the boat with a moderate size older 2-stroke, you probably have nothing to fear.

The piece serves to reduce the forces on the transom-to-tube material connection. By reducing the angle to a slow progression, it maximizes the the gluing strength so the glue is only tensioned at its "strongest" positions. Glue is weak from a "peeling" motion, but is strongest when present with forces that pull directly "upward" from the base substrate.

By having a sharp angle, there is a possibility of it peeling from the center then outward.

Of course, by upgrading to CSM/Neo fabric, you may eliminate this possibility.

If there is no "rubber" piece, I would simply use some heavy duty black fabric. You should be able to source from black Pennel & Flipo Orca 866 or similar? It has a heavier polyester base fabric to it.

When you are templating the old cuts, I would extend them outwards an additional 1-2" or so...more gluing overlap can only help. Also, be sure to pay attention to the crosshatching bias of the fabric (if you look close, you can see a "#" shaped weave). It stretches easier with an angle against the "grain" of the weave. If you try to stretch against the weave, it will not stretch.

Thank you very much for taking the time for this great write up.

I took a closer look at the transom before work this morning and found a thin strip of "rubber" hiding out. I will replace it with a more suitable piece.

Will also take your advice and glue up with Z marine CMS 2 part.

Thanks again.

Bodge · 20 April 2016, 06:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squid Boat

Great to see this fine boat coming back into service.

I would like to say thanks to Richard (Office888) for his knowledgeable posts
to this community

. He has also been a big help to me.

Cheers,

Right you are Squidboat, very helpful and I find myself lucky to have access to this kind of knowlage.

Bodge · 25 April 2016, 17:37

Well I got the boat home and had a good look at it. Besides the transom and the floor issue, it seems ok. I found the original patch kit from Bombard and was surprised to find no less than 41 patches, all of them in PVC.

Bodge · 01 May 2016, 19:07

Here are some pic"s of the patches and glue supplied with the original repair kit. I know some very knowledgeable members have said my tubes are probably hypalon and I had no reason to think different until I found all the patches were PVC.

What now? I realize the year it hails from was a experimental Hybrid era and the boat could made from anything. Ill be buying glue soon and need to sort this out.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Alex

office888 · 02 May 2016, 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bodge

Here are some pic"s of the patches and glue supplied with the original repair kit. I know some very knowledgeable members have said my tubes are probably hypalon and I had no reason to think different until I found all the patches were PVC.

What now? I realize the year it hails from was a experimental Hybrid era and the boat could made from anything. Ill be buying glue soon and need to sort this out.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Alex

Because PVC repair kits are cheaper, and they do work on hypalon/csm/neo, even with no primer (for a short period of time), this is likely why it was included at the factory.

If you want to confirm with your own eyes, take some 100 grit sandpaper and lightly sand a small spot. If it produces a nice dusting of black dust, it is hypalon/csm/neo material. If it scratches the material and produces no dust, then it is PVC.

I can guarantee the tube is made of hypalon/csm/neo though...the seams and the sheen of the coating are indicative of of this. I can see two seams that are a simple overlap with no seam tape. This is a seam technique for hand gluing.

jwalker · 02 May 2016, 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bodge

Here are some pic"s of the patches and glue supplied with the original repair kit. I know some very knowledgeable members have said my tubes are probably hypalon and I had no reason to think different until I found all the patches were PVC.

What now? I realize the year it hails from was a experimental Hybrid era and the boat could made from anything. Ill be buying glue soon and need to sort this out.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Alex

It's difficult to tell from your pics what the fabric is but it looks hypalon(ish) because pvc is fairly shiney. I have some scraps of C5 pvc and I also have hypalon. I would guess that the pvc will melt under a soldering iron heat and the hypalon will singe. I'll go and test this out and let you know.

It's fairly easy to see whether the fabric is welded or glued - look very carefully at the edges of the join, if it's welded you should see a very small bead of plastic extruded from the join which indicates the pvc melting. A glued joint is kinda dry and the fabric can be seen at the edge, often there is little strands of the fabric protruding at the edges. A good glued joint will usually have an over strip of fabric to provide extra strength but I can't see that on your pics - I'll away and do the heat test.....

jwalker · 02 May 2016, 16:10

Right, using the side of a hot soldering iron, the PVC melted easily and with a bit of pressure it exposed the fabric cords. The hypalon is hardly marked and even under pressure it only just shows a bit of a rub mark.

I suggest you find a bit of unimportant fabric and give it a test.

For general info, a hypalon sib is a bit bendy because the fabric is kinda stretchy and rubbery. Standing on the hypalon tubes of a sib or rib is very bouncy.

A PVC sib is a surprisingly rigid boat and defo superior in handling.

Hypalon is more abrasion resistant and will withstand barnacles reasonably well (within reason!) PVC will be cut easily by sliding along barnacles.

Gluing is different, Hypalon requires abrading before applying the adhesive whereas PVC requires a couple of coats of MEK to open up the surface to take the adhesive but abrading is not necessary. Therefore PVC is much less labour intensive. I prefer gluing using PVC because I find I have more control of placing the glued surfaces, but I'm aware that other folks have the opposite opinion on that.

Your boat looks very good except for the adhesive breakdown and well worth the effort of putting it back together imho. I've still to look out those photos for you - I'm not forgetting!

Bodge · 02 May 2016, 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by office888

Because PVC repair kits are cheaper, and they do work on hypalon/csm/neo, even with no primer (for a short period of time), this is likely why it was included at the factory.

If you want to confirm with your own eyes, take some 100 grit sandpaper and lightly sand a small spot. If it produces a nice dusting of black dust, it is hypalon/csm/neo material. If it scratches the material and produces no dust, then it is PVC.

I can guarantee the tube is made of hypalon/csm/neo though...the seams and the sheen of the coating are indicative of of this. I can see two seams that are a simple overlap with no seam tape. This is a seam technique for hand gluing.

Thanks for the info, I feel a lot better now. It would be a shame to go through all that work and use the wrong glue!

Bodge · 02 May 2016, 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwalker

Right, using the side of a hot soldering iron, the PVC melted easily and with a bit of pressure it exposed the fabric cords. The hypalon is hardly marked and even under pressure it only just shows a bit of a rub mark.

I suggest you find a bit of unimportant fabric and give it a test.

For general info, a hypalon sib is a bit bendy because the fabric is kinda stretchy and rubbery. Standing on the hypalon tubes of a sib or rib is very bouncy.

A PVC sib is a surprisingly rigid boat and defo superior in handling.

Hypalon is more abrasion resistant and will withstand barnacles reasonably well (within reason!) PVC will be cut easily by sliding along barnacles.

Gluing is different, Hypalon requires abrading before applying the adhesive whereas PVC requires a couple of coats of MEK to open up the surface to take the adhesive but abrading is not necessary. Therefore PVC is much less labour intensive. I prefer gluing using PVC because I find I have more control of placing the glued surfaces, but I'm aware that other folks have the opposite opinion on that.

Your boat looks very good except for the adhesive breakdown and well worth the effort of putting it back together imho. I've still to look out those photos for you - I'm not forgetting!

Thanks for the response. I will be heading out to do a small contract on the mainland in a few days and will be near a Milpro dealer that has being supplying me with materials. I will pick up more 2 part cms glue for the transom repair as well as a square yard of cms to make up the attachment bits.

Bodge · 08 May 2016, 04:39

Wondering how much material I need to complete the following.

Reattach the transom on the C5 using hypalon as suggested. How much CMS is needed to make up all the new bits? Glue will be Z7098

Reattach the floor on the C5 but not sure what glue to use for this task. PVC Z7096 or CMS Z7098.

Redo thrust board on the GR MK11, have hypalon in gray but need glue.

Any suggestions on glue and material size would be appreciated.

office888 · 08 May 2016, 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bodge

Wondering how much material I need to complete the following.

Reattach the transom on the C5 using hypalon as suggested. How much CMS is needed to make up all the new bits? Glue will be Z7098

Reattach the floor on the C5 but not sure what glue to use for this task. PVC Z7096 or CMS Z7098.

Redo thrust board on the GR MK11, have hypalon in gray but need glue.

Any suggestions on glue and material size would be appreciated.

Z7098= elastomer glue (csm, neo)
Z7096= plastomer glue (pvc, pu)

Use PVC glue and MEK for the floor. Sand the CSM part. Make sure you remove all of the old glue.

For the transom, you'd probably need about 1 square meter of material. Use Z7098 for everything. Toluene for cleaning and reactivation if required.

Bodge · 08 May 2016, 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by office888

Z7098= elastomer glue (csm, neo)
Z7096= plastomer glue (pvc, pu)

Use PVC glue and MEK for the floor. Sand the CSM part. Make sure you remove all of the old glue.

For the transom, you'd probably need about 1 square meter of material. Use Z7098 for everything. Toluene for cleaning and reactivation if required.

Thank you Richard.