Futura MK3 - Transom Glue Issue

manitoban · 19 April 2011, 03:33

When I was winterizing my boat last year I noticed that some of the fabric had come unglued from the transom on the inside of the boat. This weekend I decided to put my thumb inside the gap and run it up and down to see how much fabric would give way and the pictures show the results. At the worst point I can pull back about 2 to 2.5 cms of PVC and for the rest its about 1cm. The affected pvc runs from the top of the transom down to that bolt in picture 3. I also noticed that a gap has formed on top of the transom which concerns me a bit. I really tried to tug on the pvc to pull it apart as much as I could and it wasn't moving so it seems like the remaing bond is still solid.

Any advice as to repair or just leave it? Was thinking it would be hard to clean and prepare the surfaces of the transom and the pvc for adhesion.

jwalker · 19 April 2011, 12:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoban

....Any advice as to repair or just leave it?

Eeek... since that is part holding your transom to the boat it's probably not a good idea to just leave it. Scour the transom and the under surface of the pvc to remove the old adhesive and reglue it. There's plenty of ribnet advice on gluing pvc if you do a search.

spartacus · 19 April 2011, 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoban

Any advice as to repair or just leave it? Was thinking it would be hard to clean and prepare the surfaces of the transom and the pvc for adhesion.

Don't leave it, this is a straight-forward repair, and if you do it right will last for years. I did the same repair on a MkIIC Zodiac. Preparation is key. Also - find an ideal location to complete the repair, preferably indoors (in garage for example) where you have control over temperature, humidity, etc. Suitable tools include G-clamps, different grades of 3M sandpaper, short blocks of wood, MEK solvent to degrease and clean, elephant or gaffa tape, nitrile or latex gloves, face-mask, empty jars and disposable brushes, etc.

I did repairs using Polymarine 2-part glue. I'm sure there's something equivalent with Bostik in Canada. Check with your local marine dealer.

Polymarine details here: http://www.polymarineshop.com/adhesi...esive/pvc.html

PVC repair details here: http://www.allinflatables.com/support/pvc.html

cgoing · 20 April 2011, 13:13

Spartacus is right on. You do not want to leave it like this. A friend of mine did to try to get just one more weekend out of it and the entire thing came apart so you can guess what happened to the engine. It cost him a whole lot more in the long run.

manitoban · 21 April 2011, 02:54

Thanks for the replies.

My local supplier only has a Weaver 2 part adhesive. The guys at Westport Marina have some good glueing advice and they use Zodiac glue, Polymarine glue and Weaver. http://www.westportmarina.com/zodiac/repairs/glue.html

Any objections to using the Weaver product for this repair?

I have done some patching before so I'm not a total newbie to glue but never had to do anything involving surface scouring or wood. Since half of the pvc is still glued I was worried that the prep work might weaken what remained.

You guys definitely have convinced me to get this fixed before I get it out on the water this season. I got some time as my lake is still frozen and the temperature and the humidity in the garage might not be ideal just yet.

In the area on top of the transom where I can stick my thumb under the fabric should I try to clean, prep and re-glue also?

jyasaki · 21 April 2011, 03:35

The repair should give some resistance to the adjacent areas coming loose (if that's any consolation.)

I like the Weaver glues. They seem to work very well.

The fabric surface prep is aimed at two things: getting the old glue off, and getting the fabric surface down to clean, unoxidized material. The wood part just needs to be lightly roughed up (sanded) to give the glue something to bite to. Solvent wipe and allow to evaporate before applying the glue.

One thing I did to get into tight spots (down towards where the glue was still attached) was to cut a strip of stainless steel about 4 to 6 inches long (don't remember the gauge - .035"?), round off any corners and ease the edges, and contact cement a piece of sandpaper to the tip. Worked pretty well.

As long as you're going to glue, you might as well do everything you need to. So, yes, glue the top piece as well.

Luck;

jky

Peter_C · 21 April 2011, 07:49

NRS has the glue needed for a reasonable price.
http://www.nrsweb.com/shop/product.a...3&pdeptid=1032

Unfortunately this delaminating issue is just the beginning. Mine started in the bow and I wound up removing the entire floor and transom, then regluing everything. Still holding together a couple years later with no issues. The glue is the weak point. It took me over 40 hours to to finish the job.

You can fix the issue at hand, but keep a close eye out for other issues.

What year is your boat?

manitoban · 21 April 2011, 15:10

It's a 1998. I am the second owner and I have had it for just over a year. Its been used in Manitoba and Minnesota on the lakes so it's a cold climate boat. Previous owner did not use it much in the last 5 years and most of the time it was garage kept. He did keep it under a tree for several months with a for sale sign and that made a mess of some of the pvc, still scraping off what seems like hardened sap.

I'm hoping this isn't the beginning of the end for the glue as from what I have read on this forum and others, it's not a project for the faint of heart.

jyasaki · 21 April 2011, 16:50

Hmmm. PVC; are the tubes actually glued (other than places where the PVC meets other material)? The main reason for going to PVC was that it could be machine welded, saving a bunch of labor cost compared to hand-gluing hypalon.

I would hope that the tube seams are all welded; floor and transom are likely glued.

jky

Peter_C · 22 April 2011, 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by jyasaki

Hmmm. PVC; are the tubes actually glued (other than places where the PVC meets other material)? The main reason for going to PVC was that it could be machine welded, saving a bunch of labor cost compared to hand-gluing hypalon.

I would hope that the tube seams are all welded; floor and transom are likely glued.

jky

Correct John. The thermo bonding actually works pretty well. The tube seams seem to hold up to abuse, without failure. The glue on the other hand for PVC sucks!

To the OP, it might be worth it to push and pull at all the seams on the boat, and see if any others are lose. If so just plan on a lot of man hours using a heat gun, lots of rags, over a gallon of Acetone, a fair amount of MEK, numerous disposable brushes, rolls of masking tape, a couple quarts of glue, and lots of muscle power. Been there done that. It was worth it to save my hull though.

Either way any part that failed needs to be taken apart completely. You can use a heat gun to assist in softening the glue. Your fingers will be burned and sore from pulling if you have to do a lot.

I have seen shonkey repairs and they all failed in a short period of time.

manitoban · 28 April 2011, 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_C

To the OP, it might be worth it to push and pull at all the seams on the boat, and see if any others are lose. If so just plan on a lot of man hours using a heat gun, lots of rags, over a gallon of Acetone, a fair amount of MEK, numerous disposable brushes, rolls of masking tape, a couple quarts of glue, and lots of muscle power. Been there done that. It was worth it to save my hull though.

Either way any part that failed needs to be taken apart completely. You can use a heat gun to assist in softening the glue. Your fingers will be burned and sore from pulling if you have to do a lot.

You make it sound so fun Peter...

Seriously though, are you suggesting I use a heat gun to remove what is left of the "good" glue against the transom and re-glue the entire strip? The earlier posters seem to think just re-glueing the failed part will suffice.

A question about the suggested use of masking tape / gaffa tape. Is that to protect and keep the transom clear from the excess glue that will run out of the seam?

Peter_C · 30 April 2011, 08:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoban

You make it sound so fun Peter...

Seriously though, are you suggesting I use a heat gun to remove what is left of the "good" glue against the transom and re-glue the entire strip? The earlier posters seem to think just re-glueing the failed part will suffice.

A question about the suggested use of masking tape / gaffa tape. Is that to protect and keep the transom clear from the excess glue that will run out of the seam?

Yes, there are often rewards for hard work and pain and suffering.

Yes, but use your judgement based on the rest of the glue holding power.

Yes, the masking tape keeps the glue line clean as you put the glue on with a brush quickly and wildly as the glue dries fast. I only mixed up the glue I could use up in about 8 minutes.

kelson · 30 April 2011, 20:01

I have a futura mk2 and I have had very similar experiences with the glued seams. My welded tubes have held up very well, but I did pull apart all of the seams that would come open without damaging the underlying fabrics PVC coating. My floor did not come apart all the way around and sections of the transom to tube seams had been previously repaired. I glued everything together and have not had issues where the seams were not separated and reglued. I expected them to fail later, but they still haven't come apart after years of abuse. Everyone has to go with what they are comfortable with. I have faith in my tubes and was willing to accept the possible odd leak over time. Just my opinion, but I would not force seams apart that are well bonded. I did pull hard! Gluing sections of the floor, the front of a speed tube and the majority of the transom was a pain, took a lot of time and was totally worthwhile for me. Good luck. Preperation is everything.

I've used Weaver, Polymarine and StaBond glues. Weaver is fine, but these two part glues have a shelf life of 1 year, don't like being stored in heat or cold and are hygroscopic (suck up water). So avoid old stock and previously opened cans and jars. I like NRS for Stabond because they sell a lot and it's fresh.