Glue removal

[MEE]

Anyone have a good way of removing urethane glue off of PVC fabric and black rubber transom mounts? I have MEK, Tolulene, Laque thinner, Acetone, Isopropal alcohol, various wire brushes and 80 grit sand paper. I just don't know what I should and/or shouldn't do and I don't want to make a career out of glue removal.

[jyasaki]

For fresh glue, solvent works OK. I use MEK, but that's on hypalon. Not sure what to use on PVC

For old stuff, I use a Dremel tool with a flap wheel and very light pressure. You can also use a sanding drum, but it doesn't conform to odd shapes as well.

For urethane based glues that are soft, use a medium speed that creates a dust like gum eraser rollings. Too slow and you won't get anywhere, too fast and you melt the stuff back together.

Luck;

jky

[kelson]

Solvent, heat and abrasion are the basics. Really old glue is usually pretty easy to clean off as it is dried out, thin and crumbly. My boat had some really bad repairs attempted on it and glue was layered on heavily. To get this off I used abrasive wheels for dremel tools. A little less aggressive than sanding wheels or flaps. Made it easier to control in tight corners and in seams that weren't separated fully. Thicker deposits may not crumb off like an eraser like JKY said. The glue tends to advance in a line as the wheel works on it. Depending on what you are working on these abrasive wheels might be another tool in your bag of tricks.

[MEE]

Abrasive wheel? Can you describe this tool? Is it a solid stone type attachment? I am having the most trouble with the old glue on my black rubber transom mounts. It is hard to tell when I am through the glue and into the black rubber. Is it a big deal if it remove some of the black rubber material?

[Peter_C]

Originally Posted by MEE

Is it a big deal if it remove some of the black rubber material?

YES!

You need to use chemical gloves in a well ventilated area and with lots of Acetone and a gentle, as in grey scuffy pad, remove the glue. It is very time consuming and will wear your fingers out, but it is the gentlest way to do it.

MEK is the prewipe prep before gluing. Better find a gallon of MEK while you can. Check with TAP Plastics or some paint stores for it, as it has been banned.

[nugent]

TIDEL : inflatable accessories : Dartmouth Brixham Salcombe Plymouth Devon Cornwall Torquay

works wonders, take your time,,,,,,,,

[jyasaki]

Originally Posted by Peter_C

YES!
MEK is the prewipe prep before gluing. Better find a gallon of MEK while you can. Check with TAP Plastics or some paint stores for it, as it has been banned.

Technically incorrect. California hasn't banned it; WM Barr/Kleen Strip (the largest distributor to chain hardware stores) has stopped California distribution.

TAP plastics still carries gallons (and, I think, 5 gallons); or you can still order it online.

jky

[ncp]

Originally Posted by jyasaki

Technically incorrect. California hasn't banned it; WM Barr/Kleen Strip (the largest distributor to chain hardware stores) has stopped California distribution.

TAP plastics still carries gallons (and, I think, 5 gallons); or you can still order it online.

jky

Good to know. I got the last gallon that my local hardware store had back in January. I feel like I need some extra... "Just in case".

[Peter_C]

Originally Posted by jyasaki

Technically incorrect. California hasn't banned it; WM Barr/Kleen Strip (the largest distributor to chain hardware stores) has stopped California distribution.

TAP plastics still carries gallons (and, I think, 5 gallons); or you can still order it online.

jky

That and paint stores can't buy it from anyone to sell in Cali, and they have three years to get rid of all current stock. Other states have done the same thing. I would call it banned in CA.

My friend makes MEK, so I have a supply source at least.

[jyasaki]

"Makes MEK"? Really?

I need your friends number, as soon as TAP quits selling.

Off topic: Did you see the BA_diving post about the Blue Whales?


jky

[Peter_C]

Anyone who works with plastics can make MEK. You can buy the chemicals to manufacturer it. It is a solvent often used in plastic, hence why TAP Plastics sells it. You already know Keith as he often dives with me.

Yeah whales *depressed* we saw a couple greys two weeks ago, and missed out this week. 100's of whales both blues and humpbacks, really? I might have to launch at Bodega this week and see if we can find some. Although the forecast is not looking good. My friend with the C-dory couldn't get out of the Albion bay this past weekend, due to a short interval chop.

[ncp]

Originally Posted by Peter_C

My friend with the C-dory couldn't get out of the Albion bay this past weekend, due to a short interval chop.

Don't C-Dory's have a 0 degree deadrise aft? Take a rib, you'll be fine! ;-)

[kelson]

MEK is not banned, what is happening is that many Air Quality Control Districts are forcing the use of solvents with a lower voc. The distributers are complying with a reformulated MEK substitute. It is easier to just ship that statewide rather than solely to the affected localities. The MEK substitute works fine for the uses listed on the label. But it doesn't work well for prep or glue removal. However, MEK is an approved solvent for use in other industries and is still for sale. I buy mine from Fiberlay here in San Diego. They are not aware of any pending restriction. Yep, You aren't going to find it in paint stores and that is probably a good thing.

Unfortunately using MEK for PVC prep is not an approved use. The state isn't even aware of this specific application. But my distributer doesn't ask what I'm using it for so it isn't going to be an issue unless a substitute is developed to replace the use of MEK in all approved applications.

Have you asked TAP if they are intending to sell off their stock or whether they will be continuing to carry MEK?

The Dremel abrasive wheel in the picture I posted earlier is a soft flexible abrasive coated "mesh" (I'm at a loss for the correct term). They are available in a couple of grades. I found them much easier to control and while they don't blast off old glue as fast as a hard wheel, they do work well. They have a limited life span, but were invaluable to me when working on repairs that are not fully open and in tight corners.

It is important to avoid removing the PVC layer down to the inner fabric core, but if you hit a spot a little to much it is going to get sealed when you glue over it. Two part PVC glue won't bond as well to bare fabric, so this isn't something anyone wants to do, but a small spot of fabric showing isn't the end of the world. I have a couple of very small places where I was too aggressive with glue removal and the subsequent bonds have sealed and held well.

[jyasaki]

Originally Posted by Peter_C

100's of whales both blues and humpbacks, really?

If you look at a chart of the Monterey Bay, I think we were up at the tip of the north-running arm of the canyon. Saw one humpie along shore just south of the Salinas River, and a single blow off Pt. Pinos, but most were up on the Soquel side.

My friend with the C-dory couldn't get out of the Albion bay this past weekend, due to a short interval chop.

Usually it's tide or swell that stops me. Tide, as the boat grounds leaving the river, or swell when it tries to kill me. Chop just means you run slower (and get wetter.)

Were you camping (or rather, was he?) Seems to me that for a day trip (and not doing something specific in the Albion area), Noyo would be a much easier place to launch.

jky

[MEE]

Originally Posted by kelson

MEK is not banned, what is happening is that many Air Quality Control Districts are forcing the use of solvents with a lower voc. The distributers are complying with a reformulated MEK substitute. It is easier to just ship that statewide rather than solely to the affected localities. The MEK substitute works fine for the uses listed on the label. But it doesn't work well for prep or glue removal. However, MEK is an approved solvent for use in other industries and is still for sale. I buy mine from Fiberlay here in San Diego. They are not aware of any pending restriction. Yep, You aren't going to find it in paint stores and that is probably a good thing.

Unfortunately using MEK for PVC prep is not an approved use. The state isn't even aware of this specific application. But my distributer doesn't ask what I'm using it for so it isn't going to be an issue unless a substitute is developed to replace the use of MEK in all approved applications.

Have you asked TAP if they are intending to sell off their stock or whether they will be continuing to carry MEK?

The Dremel abrasive wheel in the picture I posted earlier is a soft flexible abrasive coated "mesh" (I'm at a loss for the correct term). They are available in a couple of grades. I found them much easier to control and while they don't blast off old glue as fast as a hard wheel, they do work well. They have a limited life span, but were invaluable to me when working on repairs that are not fully open and in tight corners.

It is important to avoid removing the PVC layer down to the inner fabric core, but if you hit a spot a little to much it is going to get sealed when you glue over it. Two part PVC glue won't bond as well to bare fabric, so this isn't something anyone wants to do, but a small spot of fabric showing isn't the end of the world. I have a couple of very small places where I was too aggressive with glue removal and the subsequent bonds have sealed and held well.

I now have the sand paper flapper wheels and will try them. I am still working on the black rubber transom mounts for now. I would not think that removing some that material is a big deal as it is a homogeneous solid body that is not sealing air. That is as long as do not goudge it too deeply? I bought MEK and toluene from NRS as well as their sta bond adhesive. They advise me to pre wipe my PVC fabric with MEK and prewipe the black rubber with the toluene when making the glue joint between them. I have a plasma treat machine at work and i was considering treating the trasmom mounts prior to the prewipe with toluene. What do you think?

[jyasaki]

No idea what a plasma treat machine is or does, so I'm not the one to ask.

jky

[MEE]

Plasma or corona treatment modifies the surface of a material to make it more
receptive to chemical bonds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corona_treatment

In any case, anyone have an opinion or experience with using toluene vs MEK as pre-wipe for urethane adhesive on transom mounts? Or have an opinion on the surface finish/flatness needed for a good urethane glue joint on transom mounts?

[MEE]

Originally Posted by nugent

TIDEL : inflatable accessories : Dartmouth Brixham Salcombe Plymouth Devon Cornwall Torquay

works wonders, take your time,,,,,,,,

What works wonders? I don't think your link was working for me or are you refering to somthing else?

[Peter_C]

Originally Posted by MEE

What works wonders? I don't think your link was working for me or are you refering to somthing else?

It is a nylon brush designed to be used for cleaning the glue. Looks like it might work pretty well.



As I said, I used scuffy pad and it worked well, although it took some human energy. I removed almost no material in cleaning the glue. Then used a tool to rough the PVC up before gluing the joint together. Something like this type of rasp works great. http://www.nrsweb.com/shop/product.a...0&pdeptid=1082

Acetone was the chemical I used for cleaning and MEK was the prep wipe prior to gluing. Can't get Toulene in California...and the MEK seems to have worked just fine.

[kelson]

Well, Obviously no big gouges or anything. You don't want a thick glue layer and the two part Sta Bond, while it will fill a little bit, isn't designed to bridge gaps. You definitely want a tight fit between the glued surfaces without a lot of pressure required. It isn't like you can vacuum bag it!

The recommendation for toluene would be to get the transom mount material properly softened for bonding. I use tolulene on hypalon accesories (some of my d rings aren't on pvc bases) before bonding to PVC. You will see if the mek is not softening the material and whether the toluene is doing a better job. I can't remember which I used on my transom mounts... that was 6 years ago. But I have both solvents and use the one that works.

The best advice I can give is to do your repair in stages. I never tried to glue everything at once. I glued individual layers and sections so I had control. Every glued section had to be set up to lay down smoothly and evenly with no pulling or tugging. Since it is a one shot deal you don't want to mess around and have to clean the surfaces again. There should be virtually no tension on the seam. To get a pucker out of my floor material at the back corner I had to leave a few inches of floor seam unglued, let my boat warm up, adjust the tube pressure and stretch the boat a little by strapping it between my truck and a car. A nice easy glue and lay down when you take the time to get it right. Working on my transom to tube joints I had to prop the boat up on it's side to get the drivers side to fall easily into position. Just a suggestion. Prep is everything.

If you haven't already got these instructions follow them! Information From ShipStore.com | Zodiac Inflatable Boat Fabric Glue and Repair Instructions | GLUE from the ShipStore.com ™ on-line catalog. This is what it really takes to get a good bond. Don't over look humidity. I bought a cheap hygrometer ($12) and I paid attention to the environmental limits. Don't let your hard work cleaning glue go to waste.

I hope you get a great result and years of enjoyment from your boat!

Plasma treatment is more for materials like UHMWPE and various other plastics and PE foams. I wouldn't use it on the PVC.

If your old glue is dry and thin some simple acetone or mek with hand abrasion will work well. I had thick layers of glue that weren't that old layered on by the PO. It needed the abrasive wheel.