Honwave airdeck problem

[boater99]

Hello all,

I have the Honwave T38 airdeck model. I have only used it 5-6 times over the course of 4 years for fishing, but on our last outing we noticed a leak at near the area where the port side airdeck meets the transom. We could clearly hear the air escaping but decided to put some repair tape on the leaking area and head out anyway (in calm conditions and near the shore), but sure enough the port side floor went completely soft in short time.

Anyway back home I inspected the area and sprayed it with soap water which helped me confirm the leak location. It took very little force to peel off the thick rubber strake, and in fact, it peeled off together with the gray PVC banding, and to my surprise I could actually see and touch inside the airdeck and its inside fibers. Please see the attached picture.

Now I have no idea why this happened. The sib has only seen some light use, and I never exceeded the max pressure for any chamber. It was also never left in the sun and was always stored in indoor conditions with no extreme heat. I always deflated it and rolled it up when not used, but I suppose that shouldn't have caused such damage.

I also don't know the structure of the airdeck under the gray band so I can't tell if I got a tear in the airdeck fabric itself or if the gray band is actually supposed to hold the top and bottom sides together. I'm hoping you can help me in understanding what's going on here. Inside the opening I can see no glue residue either on the airdeck fabric or the inside of gray band (the residue at the top is from a failed attempt to stop the leak with super glue).

Also, it may be a stupid question but in the last picture (this is the corner of the airdeck near the port side tube) you can see I can clearly put the wooden stick in between the upper and lower sides of the airdeck. Is it supposed to be like this, or has my airdeck somehow got torn apart all the way till this point?

Any idea how to go about fixing this?

Best regards,
Mike

[Steve509926]

Hi, it's a shame that someone has tried to use superglue as that may comprise things. However I agree, from the pictures you've uploaded there doesn't appear to be any adhesive residue at all.
IMO I would be contacting Honda/Honwave before I attempted any repair. I realise it is outside of the guarantee period, but there is evidence, from your pictures, that the bond wasn't fit for purpose in the first place. It's worth a try.

[Fenlander]

Did you have this new in 2019 or is it much older than that? If it really is 4yrs old then as Steve says try for goodwill. If it was bought used and is ten years or more old then this is probably the somewhat early start of glue failure which will run through all the joints over time now it's started.

If you get no goodwill then you need to try and pull even more apart, sound glue will hold but if it's age related failure then you may end up with more to repair. If you decide to repair localised areas yourself just get a decent two-part adhesive and the correct solvent to clean the old glue right back to clean pvc. Follow glue instructions very carefully re temperature, humidity, perfect prep and the optimum time to close the tacky glue coated surfaces.

[boater99]

Originally Posted by Steve509926

Hi, it's a shame that someone has tried to use superglue as that may comprise things. However I agree, from the pictures you've uploaded there doesn't appear to be any adhesive residue at all.
IMO I would be contacting Honda/Honwave before I attempted any repair. I realise it is outside of the guarantee period, but there is evidence, from your pictures, that the bond wasn't fit for purpose in the first place. It's worth a try.

Hi Steve,

That's what I'm thinking too regarding there being a problem in the manufacturing process. But while I purchased this from a UK dealer I'm in another country now with the boat, so it'd be too costly and too much of a hassle to return it even if they agreed. There are local honwave dealers here though, but I think the chances of arranging a return/change through them would be slim. I'll contact honwave anyway just in case.

If that doesn't work and I happen to have to attempt the repair myself, I'm thinking since there are fibers inside the airdeck an internal patch would be out of question, no?

Would preparing the part of the seam that has come off with abrasion and perhaps some MEK and re-gluing it with 2 part glue, then clamping it from the outside work? I can then follow up with an external patch over the seam. I guess the rubber strake would have to come off first though. Does this sound like a good idea?

Best regards,
Mike

[boater99]

Originally Posted by Fenlander

Did you have this new in 2019 or is it much older than that? If it really is 4yrs old then as Steve says try for goodwill. If it was bought used and is ten years or more old then this is probably the somewhat early start of glue failure which will run through all the joints over time now it's started.

If you get no goodwill then you need to try and pull even more apart, sound glue will hold but if it's age related failure then you may end up with more to repair. If you decide to repair localised areas yourself just get a decent two-part adhesive and the correct solvent to clean the old glue right back to clean pvc. Follow glue instructions very carefully re temperature, humidity, perfect prep and the optimum time to close the tacky glue coated surfaces.

Hello,

Yes this was a new boat then. I'll try contacting honwave and see what they will say.

I outlined the process I may attempt if it comes to a repair above, though I'm not sure if it'll work. I'm hoping this is just a bad spot and not something affecting other areas.

Best regards,
Mike

[Steve509926]

Hi Mike, I wouldn't even think of going through a dealer, I would contact Honwave direct, and really push the point that even though its 4 years old, the SIB was never fit for purpose.
If that doesn't produce a result, then I'd do exactly as Fenlander has said. I don't see why you couldn't, with care, use an internal patch.

[willk]

Is it just me, or is this Deja Vu all over again?

[Steve509926]

Originally Posted by willk

Is it just me, or is this Deja Vu all over again?

I had just poured another glass and thought exactly the same.

Then I thought............

Nah, can't be, it's not S&R Orange!

[User name]

It looks like glue failure indeed, but it can also be caused by being improperly folded and applying stress to the seam. I can see residue of the glue there and it obviously held air at some point so it will have been bonded. It could be contamination of the glue or surface, poor preparation or a multitude of other causes.

I'd try pull back more of the seam and see if it's weak further along too. It should be next to impossible to separate the layers by hand. If the rest is still solid then just do as you suggested with the 2 part glue and re-bonding the layers. Sanding is an important step. The glue bonds so much better to a well keyed surface.

If it's done well then a patch over the top shouldn't be necessary but it won't hurt to reinforce it. You don't need any clamps or anything like that. It can increase the risk of bonding the insides together too. Just apply loads of pressure to the glued surfaces and then make sure that it's not stuck to itself internally before leaving to cure.

[boater99]

Originally Posted by Steve509926

Hi Mike, I wouldn't even think of going through a dealer, I would contact Honwave direct, and really push the point that even though its 4 years old, the SIB was never fit for purpose.
If that doesn't produce a result, then I'd do exactly as Fenlander has said. I don't see why you couldn't, with care, use an internal patch.

Hi Steve, will do that and see what happens.

[boater99]

Originally Posted by User name

It looks like glue failure indeed, but it can also be caused by being improperly folded and applying stress to the seam. I can see residue of the glue there and it obviously held air at some point so it will have been bonded. It could be contamination of the glue or surface, poor preparation or a multitude of other causes.

I'd try pull back more of the seam and see if it's weak further along too. It should be next to impossible to separate the layers by hand. If the rest is still solid then just do as you suggested with the 2 part glue and re-bonding the layers. Sanding is an important step. The glue bonds so much better to a well keyed surface.

If it's done well then a patch over the top shouldn't be necessary but it won't hurt to reinforce it. You don't need any clamps or anything like that. It can increase the risk of bonding the insides together too. Just apply loads of pressure to the glued surfaces and then make sure that it's not stuck to itself internally before leaving to cure.

Hello,

Thanks for the detailed answer. It surely held air on our previous uses. I'm not sure about being folded improperly, although that may have contributed. I always tried to mimic the way it came folded when I first received it in the original bag, although now I will pay extra attention to that spot next time to see if it's indeed putting stress at that seam. I guess I thought these things would easily take that kind of stress but apparently that may not be the case.

For the repair, if I go that route, would it be enough for me to apply pressure initially just to the original seam area and let go while it is being cured (no clamps or anything else)? I was thinking of putting in a sheet of plastic (like ziploc) that would prevent two sides from being stuck together when the glue is applied, then leaving the plastic sheet in there. Is this not necessary? Or how do I apply pressure to the whole seem area without sticking the top side to the bottom, as I can't push from inside the airdeck?

Sorry if it doesn't make much sense, I'm just trying to get my head around it before attempting a repair if I happen to have to do it.

Best regards,
Mike

[Fenlander]

>> it can also be caused by being improperly folded and applying stress to the seam.

>> to see if it's indeed putting stress at that seam. I guess I thought these things would easily take that kind of stress but apparently that may not be the case.

Sorry to disagree with a fellow member but even a SIB folded by the book has many areas of the seams folded tight over. If the glued joint was 100% when made then it should be as strong as a non-glued area for the lifetime of the SIB.

I've owned many different SIB makes/models and they have all been ones living their lives folded in bags, none has ever suffered glue failure at a point of folding.

BTW sanding the repair area is for Hypalon only not PVC, for PVC removing the old glue with MEK or Acetone is the correct prep.

https://www.ribstore.co.uk/pages/how-to-repair-ribs

[User name]

Originally Posted by Fenlander

BTW sanding the repair area is for Hypalon only not PVC, for PVC removing the old glue with MEK or Acetone is the correct prep.

https://www.ribstore.co.uk/pages/how-to-repair-ribs

You should 100% key up PVC too. It has a smooth, shiny kind of finish on its outer layers and and when keyed, it goes tacky much better than on the factory finish. You can actually feel the difference. By keying it, you're essentially multiplying the surface area and greatly improving the bond.

[Steve509926]

Originally Posted by User name

You should 100% key up PVC too.

Manufacturers data sheets would disagree with you.

[Fenlander]

I am very wary to advise others against the advice of the inflatable boat glue suppliers.

[User name]

Originally Posted by Fenlander

I am very wary to advise others against the advice of the inflatable boat glue suppliers.

This is not going against the advice. By the reference link you provided yourself, it says "There's no need" to key, it does not say there's no benefit or any detrimental effect to keying. There is 100% a benefit to keying in my experience. I'm no inflatable expert but I get help from a man who built these for 40+ years. I've been fishing in them for 20+ years and still have solid repairs on a boat I've had since 2004. Of course, it should still bond fine without keying, but why not give it the best chance of making a good seal that you can.

[User name]

Originally Posted by Steve509926

Manufacturers data sheets would disagree with you.

Not true. You'll find plenty of sources that will suggest keying to get a better bond. "Manufacturers" is a very broad stroke too. Lots of the PVC repair kits even come with the 80-120 paper included for the job.

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by willk

Is it just me, or is this Deja Vu all over again?

Can you have Deja vu just the once?[emoji848]

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by User name

Not true. You'll find plenty of sources that will suggest keying to get a better bond.

Got any links to that info please? I’m about to do some PVC gluing & I’d like to get it right first time.

[User name]

Originally Posted by boater99

For the repair, if I go that route, would it be enough for me to apply pressure initially just to the original seam area and let go while it is being cured (no clamps or anything else)? I was thinking of putting in a sheet of plastic (like ziploc) that would prevent two sides from being stuck together when the glue is applied, then leaving the plastic sheet in there. Is this not necessary? Or how do I apply pressure to the whole seem area without sticking the top side to the bottom, as I can't push from inside the airdeck?

Sorry if it doesn't make much sense, I'm just trying to get my head around it before attempting a repair if I happen to have to do it.

Best regards,
Mike

Makes perfect sense.

There's no need for clamping pressure and it actually makes it more likely that the back of the repair will stick to the opposite side. You can simply bond them together and apply loads of pressure (really, get the elbow grease going. There's always air even when you think it's good) in a rubbing/scraping motion with a dull tool.

I use some roller tools for working the air out and then using the wooden handle of the same tool to apply extra pressure on a second pass. You can use things like screwdriver handles, plastic scrapers and so on. Just be sure whatever tool you're using isn't capable of cutting the fabric.

If you're tidy with the gluing then there won't be very much excess on the inside, so there's no need to worry about it bonding to itself. The opposite side won't be primed either, so it's less prone to sticking. You basically follow the glue instructions for layers/wait times and apply pressure to make the final bond. It'll be really keen to stick to itself so try to get the position right the first time to avoid having to pull it apart again. Using masking tape as an outline before you start can really help.

Once you're happy with the bond you can then pull the sides apart to make sure it's not stuck internally and leave it to cure. The seam won't reopen while doing this. The glue will lose its stickiness after only a few mins outside of the tub so the risk of it sticking internally will be diminished before long.

Hope that helps.