Personal locator beacon

[7ommy]

Looking to sort all the safety bits I need to head out on the water. Got the PFD’s, oars, rope & anchor, toolkit sorted.
Question is does anyone use/carry one of these as an alternative to flares or vhf ?

Thanks

[Bern Hanreck]

http://www.rib.net/forum/f8/mob-irish-sea-78534.html

[jeffstevens763@g]

Originally Posted by 7ommy

Looking to sort all the safety bits I need to head out on the water. Got the PFD’s, oars, rope & anchor, toolkit sorted.
Question is does anyone use/carry one of these as an alternative to flares or vhf ?

Thanks

i carry one plus fixed VHF [DSC] and hand held, i've done away with flares and gone for an odeo flare, also carry a mirror and a strobe on my life jacket

[Fenlander]

>>> does anyone use/carry one of these as an alternative to flares or vhf ?

Not an alternative in my opinion... but an added layer on top if you wish.

A VHF or or other means of attracting attention may be far more appropriate if you are just inconvenienced and in no immediate danger in an area where there are other craft that might assist.

As opposed to setting off the full rescue situation by triggering the PLB... which is of course useful when it really hits the fan.

[7ommy]

Thanks guys, I have one already from when I fish alone off the cliffs in Cornwall for when as you say it hits the fan.

Handheld vhf looks to be next purchase and will enquire about the certification on my RYA PB2

[HDAV]

Originally Posted by 7ommy

Thanks guys, I have one already from when I fish alone off the cliffs in Cornwall for when as you say it hits the fan.

Handheld vhf looks to be next purchase and will enquire about the certification on my RYA PB2

To use a vhf radio except in an emergency you need a short range operators certificate. The RYA admisister these there is a course and an exam you don’t have to do the course to take the exam.

Radio is £100ish-£300 course is £150 ish inc £60exam fee some online courses are cheaper.

PLB has a delay in response where a phone call or radio will not, radio will get every vessel in vicinity phone call gets direct to coastguard. MOB 20 miles off shore PLB, engine trouble 1mile off shore vhf for a tow...........

[7ommy]

Excellent info and help thanks, standard horizon a good vhf brand ?

[Pingu]

Originally Posted by HDAV

To use a vhf radio except in an emergency you need a short range operators certificate. The RYA admisister these there is a course and an exam you don’t have to do the course to take the exam.

Radio is £100ish-£300 course is £150 ish inc £60exam fee some online courses are cheaper.

PLB has a delay in response where a phone call or radio will not, radio will get every vessel in vicinity phone call gets direct to coastguard. MOB 20 miles off shore PLB, engine trouble 1mile off shore vhf for a tow...........

"PLB has a delay in response where a phone call or radio will not"

I thought the newer GPS enabled PLBs were pretty much instant?

[7ommy]

Mine is a McMurdi fast find 220, fully registered with the UK Distress & Security Beacon Registry

[HDAV]

Originally Posted by Pingu

"PLB has a delay in response where a phone call or radio will not"

I thought the newer GPS enabled PLBs were pretty much instant?

Still has to wait for comms satellite with 406Mhz to be in range to pick up the distress signal they have gps for your location but use a different bird to relay the position to the monitoring station as far as I know.

Some may have VHF transmitters too which send a DSC alert, this can be picked up by in range DSC receivers but the 406Mhz alert will still have a delay of upto 60 min for coverage. If you are in DSC range (will be restricted by antenna height and power) you could conceivably be rescued by the time the 406Mhz signal is picked up.

https://www.mrtsos.com/plbs-explaine...tor-beacon-plb

Standard are good brand of vhf many people like icom I personally have standard other markets prefer others

Just don’t get the £60 cobra

[HDAV]

Originally Posted by 7ommy

Mine is a McMurdi fast find 220, fully registered with the UK Distress & Security Beacon Registry

https://www.mcmurdogroup.com/mcmurdo...-fastfind-220/

When activated it transmits a coded message on the 406 MHz distress frequency which is monitored by the Cospas-Sarsat satellite system. The alert is then relayed via an earth station to the nearest Rescue Coordination Centre (RCC)

A PLB uses an internal GPS receiver to pinpoint your location to within 62m. Once in the area, rescue services are then able to pinpoint your precise location using the inbuilt 121.5Mhz homing transmitter.

So as i understand it there is upto 60 minutes delay in activating a "fast find" and COSPAS coverage plus the mobilisation time. VHF with DSC for in shore situations would be my preference. Off shore where chances of another vessel being within 3 miles is limited then PLB is the answer. In short you probably need both but in all but a MOB i would reach for VHF or mobile phone first (taking on water, engine failure etc)

[7ommy]

Yes icon or standard horizon were the ones I was looking at, the one thing I don’t want to scrimp on

[HDAV]

I have a hx851 predescessor to the hx870 works great for me for none dsc look at the HX300

[gpsguru]

Originally Posted by HDAV

So as i understand it there is upto 60 minutes delay in activating a "fast find" and COSPAS coverage plus the mobilisation time. VHF with DSC for in shore situations would be my preference. Off shore where chances of another vessel being within 3 miles is limited then PLB is the answer. In short you probably need both but in all but a MOB i would reach for VHF or mobile phone first (taking on water, engine failure etc)

Your PLB trasmits the first call on 406 in a little over 60 SECONDS ....... they are designed to wait 60 seconds in case of accidental activation, which allows for a 'turn off' within the 60 secs. The first call will just contain the coded 'HexData' of the PLB which is enough to identify you. The second ad subsequent calls will also include GPS data provided that you are clear enough to 'see' 3 GPS birds.

The COSPAS birds are 'geo' so the UK is always in the coverage foorprint. The McMurdo statement of 62 metres is worst case ........... 15 - 20 metres accuarcy is more typical.

The earth station sees your 'call' in real time and then passes the processed info the the PLB country of origin .......... in our case the CoastGuard SAR in Scotland ........... if there was no GPS data, they will then make phone calls to find out about the PLB holders last known activity and proceed from there .............. usually GPS data will have over ridden that necessity.

If (which is unlikely in UK waters) there is no GPS data, then the 'low orbit' birds will also pick up the signal and put a location on it, but thais takes time (up to 1 hour) ........ however, by that time, (because it was received by a 'Geo' bird), the rescue will be well under way.

Although a 'DSC' call for a handheld with inbuilt GPS does the trick ...... as it is VHF it is more unreliable due to coverage issues at sea water level than than a PLB.................

Auto activation of PLB's is not allowed under the current rules.


The PLB '121' homing beacon (Int Aircraft distress Channel) is for the SAR LB's and Helo's to 'home' in on your location when within a couple of miles. Modern GPS technology really negates how useful it is, as they know your location to within 15 - 20 metres every few minutes for up to 24 hours.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by gpsguru

Your PLB trasmits the first call on 406 in a little over 60 SECONDS ....... they are designed to wait 60 seconds in case of accidental activation, which allows for a 'turn off' within the 60 secs. The first call will just contain the coded 'HexData' of the PLB which is enough to identify you. The second ad subsequent calls will also include GPS data provided that you are clear enough to 'see' 3 GPS birds.

The COSPAS birds are 'geo' so the UK is always in the coverage foorprint. The McMurdo statement of 62 metres is worst case ........... 15 - 20 metres accuarcy is more typical.

The earth station sees your 'call' in real time and then passes the processed info the the PLB country of origin .......... in our case the CoastGuard SAR in Scotland ........... if there was no GPS data, they will then make phone calls to find out about the PLB holders last known activity and proceed from there .............. usually GPS data will have over ridden that necessity.

If (which is unlikely in UK waters) there is no GPS data, then the 'low orbit' birds will also pick up the signal and put a location on it, but thais takes time (up to 1 hour) ........ however, by that time, (because it was received by a 'Geo' bird), the rescue will be well under way.

Your final statement seems optimistic to me - if you’ve not already then this gives you an idea of the times and potential errors that can arise: https://www.gov.uk/maib-reports/sink...oss-of-3-lives

The feedback from both those who have been waiting for help and those who organise it, is the system isn’t quite as slick as you might hope.

[gpsguru]

Originally Posted by Poly

Your final statement seems optimistic to me - if you’ve not already then this gives you an idea of the times and potential errors that can arise: https://www.gov.uk/maib-reports/sink...oss-of-3-lives

The feedback from both those who have been waiting for help and those who organise it, is the system isn’t quite as slick as you might hope.

True, Poly, True ...........

I refer you to this statement regarding the above,

"Weaknesses in knowledge and procedures led to delays in the SAR operation"

The issue here is more about 'administrative errors' which cause the lost time !


TBH the CG do a great job, but there have been several occasions when a delayed SAR repsonse has not been helpful ........... we had a situation in Plymouth where the LB threatened to launch of their own accord rather than wait any longer for the CG to request ! ........... in that incident 2 lives were lost on a scallop dredger off the Eddystone. This incident did not involve Epirb or PLB ....... https://assets.publishing.service.go...ort15_2016.pdf

The technology surrounding PLB's is fine ........... but the administration is sometimes lacking in its decison making capacity when responding to an incident, whether it be Epirb, PLB, DSC, or late arrival ............ I guess its OK 99%+ of the time, but it needs to be 100% .......... more of 'act first and ask questions later' is perhaps needed ..... lets be clear here, I am not knocking the CG as they do a great job, but I think sometimes the 'rules' need to be bent a little to do the job in hand.

[boristhebold]

Yep, I carry a PLB in a pocket and a small safety knife in same pocket and a handheld VHF clipped to lifejacket. As im often out on my boat on my own in case I go overboard I then have two means of getting help. PLB's are so small its really a no brainer to carry one.

[HDAV]

Ah so it seems cospas Saratoga uses 3 types of bird or at least three types have SARSAT functionality.

Low earth orbit (polar orbit) this provide true global coverage, Geomstationary orbit (not seen foot prints yet) and mid earth orbit (newer Galileo birds) coming online from 2016.


So there can be a delay but this is likely at polar regions not covered by geo orbits. Populated areas likely will be.

However despite all this airlines with far more sophiscated SARSAT kit are lost. PLB are great but not infallible and not a vhf replacement in my opinion carrying a PLB, VHF and flares on your person is the best option if you are solo on the water.

[ShinyShoe]

Originally Posted by gpsguru

Your PLB trasmits the first call on 406 in a little over 60 SECONDS ....... they are designed to wait 60 seconds in case of accidental activation, which allows for a 'turn off' within the 60 secs. The first call will just contain the coded 'HexData' of the PLB which is enough to identify you. The second ad subsequent calls will also include GPS data provided that you are clear enough to 'see' 3 GPS birds.

BUT its not quite as simple as seeing 3 birds. The shouldalways be possible at sea in UK waters. But the GPS will need to download its almanac as it won't have been "on" recently enough to have one. The alamanac is played on a loop from the sat over 12.5minutes, so in theory you can get a first fix on a completely "cold" start in 12.5 minutes. Provided a wave didn't wobble your PLB position and mean it lost a bit of data. I'm not a GPS expert but I think if there are 3 sats - then in theory the GPS may be able to share the download out so you don't need to wait 12.5 minutes for missed bits to re-appear and might get a first fix in ~4 mins if uninterupted. But that would require the 3 sats to be issueing perfectly co-ordinated messages...

The COSPAS birds are 'geo' so the UK is always in the coverage footprint. The McMurdo statement of 62 metres is worst case ........... 15 - 20 metres accuarcy is more typical.

Once you've got a position, and sent it back out - the position is fine. It can be 200m to be honest...

The earth station sees your 'call' in real time and then passes the processed info the the PLB country of origin .......... in our case the CoastGuard SAR in Scotland ........... if there was no GPS data, they will then make phone calls to find out about the PLB holders last known activity and proceed from there .............. usually GPS data will have over ridden that necessity.

But that's not quite the process is it?
The Satellite receives your message. In UK waters it will probably be able to relay it straight back to ground, otherwise it would store it until it could.
It is relayed to ground usually for UK waters in Spain. They then call the UK Mission Control Centre in Scotland (RAF). UKMCC then calls Falmouth CG irrelevant of where the vessel is (or isn't depending if known). This is a MANUAL PROCESS. There is no automation - it doesn't make an alarm ring in Falmouth when you press the magic button.

The CG SOP doesn't tell them to call the shore contact where a position is resolved. But they do. SO they will try to call the boat and the shore contact.

It took 7 minutes for UKMCC to notify Falmouth of an alert in the Louisa case. There is nothing to suggest that was unusually slow. 12 minutes to get a course position (so quicker to use LEO sat than get a fix in this particular case ??chance) and 18 minutes for Falmouth (in theory) to have it. 19 minutes for the refined position at UKMCC ... it is the times after that, that eveyone raises eyebrows at...

(Another 24 mins before UK CG seem to know the position they are working is accurate, then a 6minute delay to lifeboat request, 9 minutes to helo request, 11 minute delay from lifeboat request to crew being paged, 13minute delay from helo request to helo crew paged...)

But realistically - 20 minutes is probably reasonably "normal" in terms of getting an accurate PLB/EPIRB position to UKCoastguard.

They will still do shore contact and VHF contact even with a position. I'd hope they are learning and are multitasking...

But realistically - likely the first a nearby boat knows you are in trouble is 30+ minutes in when there is a MayDay Relay from UKCG. If you'd made a VHF voice call at the outset you might already be on their boat and safe.

Although a 'DSC' call for a handheld with inbuilt GPS does the trick ...... as it is VHF it is more unreliable due to coverage issues at sea water level than than a PLB.................

Auto activation of PLB's is not allowed under the current rules.

Unreliable would be the wrong word. It has a shorter range. BUT if there are others in that range who can help they will actually know sooner with DSC. Handheld should get a range of 5 miles+ on DSC (probably more as good chance the others have higher antenna). Thats actually an area of >75 square miles you are reaching...

The PLB '121' homing beacon (Int Aircraft distress Channel) is for the SAR LB's and Helo's to 'home' in on your location when within a couple of miles. Modern GPS technology really negates how useful it is, as they know your location to within 15 - 20 metres every few minutes for up to 24 hours.

But realistically they know your position with probably 10-15minutes lag while it gets passed from one agency to another. if you are drifting at 2 knots on a tide that means you might be 0.5NM away from your last position. While they will be able to spot the drift from multiple positions

On a clear day, on my boat. Not an issue.

On a stormy day with poor vis, and the only thing to see is my head in the water... I'd be very happy if they used 121 to find me!

Originally Posted by gpsguru

True, Poly, True ...........


"Weaknesses in knowledge and procedures led to delays in the SAR operation"

The technology surrounding PLB's is fine ........... but the administration is sometimes lacking in its decison making capacity when responding to an incident, whether it be Epirb, PLB, DSC, or late arrival ....

I think there were two issues though - the technology isn't as instant as "the public" might imagine. I think the public imagine a siren and red flashing light in Falmouth or even the local MRCC the very second they hit the red button on their PLB. AND once the virtual siren sounds in the MRCC they perhaps aren't quite as "Thunderbirds are go" as we all imagine either.

PLB's are so small its really a no brainer to carry one.

Not disputing that. But would you carry one instead of a VHF or as well as a VHF? You have £200 to spend on safety kit - is it a HH VHF, HH DSC VHF, or a PLB. Because the budget doesn't stretch to all three. If the budget was £300 it might be easier - £100 VHF and £200 PLB. Although... would a fixed VHF and HH VHF be better? That might depend where you operate.

[gpsguru]

Originally Posted by HDAV

However despite all this airlines with far more sophiscated SARSAT kit are lost. PLB are great but not infallible and not a vhf replacement in my opinion carrying a PLB, VHF and flares on your person is the best option if you are solo on the water.

Aircraft lost in water are notoioulsy difficult to find as you are relant on the Black Box beacon ...........


Like Boris, I am often alone on the RIB ........On my LJ is a DSC VHF, Rope Knife, and PLB ...............


IMHO flares are not a good option (awkward to use in an emergency situation and difficulkt to get rid of after expiry) .......... you are reliant on somebody seeing the flare within the 40 seconds burn time .......... OK if you are near the shore but not so good when a few miles out.


Orange smoke flares are handy for showing your position to the SAR crews, but a homing beaconor VHF is more relaible, however, I have not carried flares for at least 10 years ..............


Yes, the COSPAS - SARSAT footprint is excellent for the UK and Mainland EU right down to North Africa ............


I can tell you from experience that a PLB works and the response is quite quick ....... 2 years ago I accidently set mine off without realising it ............