VHF radio course

[kaman]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

Are you reading the thread or just ranting? You don't have to pay £100 for Ofcom registration. Ofcom registration of a VHF is free.

Not ranting just telling it as it is.

QUESTION: What do you need before you can get your VHF registered with Ofcom?

ANSWER: VHF course + exam = 100 quid dent in your wallet!

Hence it cost around 100 quid to get legally registered more or less.

Lol!

Out.

[SPR]

erm ... free of charge to register a radio with Ofcom - they don't ask for any certificate as Poly stated...

No course required - just illegal to use the radio unless in emergency.

Road Tax = Ofcom but free
Drivers Licence = Radio Course and examination

S.


www.firstaidatsea.co.uk
www.SPRmarine.co.uk

[kaman]

Originally Posted by kaman

Hence it cost around 100 quid to get legally registered more or less.

Lol!

Out.

As said above it still costs you 100 quid more or less for you to 'legally' have the use of your VHF device.

You need to be Ofcom registered and to be qualified to use the darn thing unless there immediate danger to life.

According to the legislation you run the risk of a £5000 fine or 6 months in the slammer for using it otherwise.
This is aimed at larger commercial vessels.

This is why most hand helds in particular are not registered in the UK as Sibbers kayakers etc don't want the hassle and expense, therefore most don't register or go on a course - they see a hand held VHF as a good safety device to get you or someone out of trouble.

Most people I know in this fraternity have unregistered VHFs. They only envisage using theirs to talk to within their own group or in an emergency situation to potentially save a life and have the ready made excuse at their disposal that they just acquired the VHF and were about to register it etc etc in the near future.

You are not going g to be criticised by the RNLI or Coastguard for having an unregistered VHF and using it to save someone's bacon you are more likely to get criticised for not having one. This is why no paper work relating to the buyer/ user is filled out - unlike when you buy a tv.

I had mine for 8 months before registering and passing the exam.
It cost me more for this than it did for the radio itself!
Hence why Im posting on here as I simply felt ripped of by going to do the course. Where I learned no mire than was I already knew from my own studies.

There is too much red tape and expense at present for sibbers kayakers etc to be bothered with the hassle of qualifying and registering for the use of a handheld VHF.

And it ain't worth registering without qualifying and visa versa. Both go hand in hand so you are forced to pay up for the course.

The whole process needs streamlined for low powered hand helds that are used infrequently on Sibs and kayaks. This will help to get more people registered and trained.

[Wibs]

I learnt loads on my VHF course, not just what is required in an emergency.!!!


I admit, some of it I have forgotten, and I can be a little rusty on it at the start of the season, but I don't know why anyone would choose not to go on the course.?

A quick google search would prob give you most the answers, so this isn't a test, but are you happy knowing....

How to make a ship-to-ship call without clogging up the airways?

Calling up a Marina to ask for a mooring?

How far you signal will reach?....especially on a kayak/sib with a handheld VHF.!!

What to do if you hear a Mayday.?

How to test you radio to see if it works....?

My advise, do the course....yes in an emergency anyone can push a button and shout mayday, but I find it was more helpful for all the other things.

[kaman]

Originally Posted by Wibs

I learnt loads on my VHF course, not just what is required in an emergency.!!!

I admit, some of it I have forgotten, and I can be a little rusty on it at the start of the season, but I don't know why anyone would choose not to go on the course.?

A quick google search would prob give you most the answers, so this isn't a test, but are you happy knowing....

How to make a ship-to-ship call without clogging up the airways?

Calling up a Marina to ask for a mooring?

How far you signal will reach?....especially on a kayak/sib with a handheld VHF.!!

What to do if you hear a Mayday.?

How to test you radio to see if it works....?

My advise, do the course....yes in an emergency anyone can push a button and shout mayday, but I find it was more helpful for all the other things.

I've done the course 3 years ago - that's probably why im on here having a rant.
I just didn't think it was value for money.
It's good to hear you felt you learned loads tho.

I had already owned my VHF 8 months before I went on the course.
I hadn't used it apart from a couple of signal tests.

I read up on-line and bought a book and felt I was in a good position to do the course and exam.

Maybe it's because I also carry and use a similar radio at work to communicate with colleagues that I just didn't get anything from my course.

The phrase teaching you to suck eggs springs mind.
I was really disappointed at the end of mine as were three of the four other students on it.
Maybe it was a bad instructor?

The thing is - from 8 other vessels in my local get together - sea angling club only 2 have registered vhf sets onboard with qualified owners.
The other 6 have unregistered sets with unqualified owners!

I know what this tells me about the current set up with regards to the exam and registration process.
The set up as it is off putting and too many folks with small infrequently used ribs, sibs kayaks, canoes who see it a too much grief and choose not to register and qualify.

[bingosucks]

don`t knock the humble sib its a great way of building confidence and no claims insurance
pb2 is a cracking course and i learnt alot though that all went out the window the first time on the water after the course . it was nice having wibs for company hammering home the cardinals
i found it really useful having to moore up to fuel up on the hamble having done pontoon work i felt comfortable using the engine rather than point and grope

vhf is on my list to do but i still carry one

[Poly]

Originally Posted by kaman

More people who fit into the category I have described earlier would be willing to qualify and register.

Any quantitative data to prove that? I suspect that almost any cost is a barrier to registration/certification and that any meaningful amount of time spent on a test is also an excuse - after all further up the page you were ranting about "Exams being like at school".

Originally Posted by kaman

The thing is - from 8 other vessels in my local get together - sea angling club only 2 have registered vhf sets onboard with qualified owners.
The other 6 have unregistered sets with unqualified owners!

I know what this tells me about the current set up with regards to the exam and registration process.

Interestingly what it tells me is that enforcement of the regulations is ineffective.

According to the legislation you run the risk of a £5000 fine or 6 months in the slammer for using it otherwise.
This is aimed at larger commercial vessels.

don't mislead yourself or others. The offence is the same whether commercial or leisure. Commercial misuse would be an aggravating factor that increases the penalty and it is unlikely any leisure user operating sensible would be fined anything like that amount (just as for most road traffic offences fines rarely reach the maximum) but if you were prosecuted at all, even a £50 fine + costs + victim surcharge will make the course seem value for money.

If you look back at other threads you will see I am not a big fan of the (old) course either, however my logic is for totally different reasons to yours.

Maybe it was a bad instructor?

Quite possibly. But it could also have been an opinionated know-it-all student!

The phrase teaching you to suck eggs springs mind.

interestingly neither I, nor my granny (when she was alive), have ever sucked an egg! You see there may be skills that you assume everyone had which they don't. I would suggest effective verbal communication is one of them. If you really think that using a VHF effectively is no different from using a phone then I think you missed the point. Which channel, simplex v's duplex, squelch, listening before talking, use of prowords, management of the network are all issues I've never had to address on the phone! The RYA administered course and Ofcom managed registration exist precisely because people think that using a VHF is easy and just like being on the phone.

[kaman]

In response to Poly's rant lol,

Let's start by comparing the all of the functions that you can perform on a VHF which are let's face it basic, to all of the complex functions of a smart phone.

Most users of smart phones will never use anywhere near 90% of the functions availiable on them.
Most will only ever use the basic text messaging, internet, a few apps and the phone call facilities
Most only want a VHF to perform basic functions - particularly sibbers with handhelds that only have VERY VERY basic functions.

Smart phones don't come with instructions - you go online to find out how to perform the more technical tasks. Their owners don't have to go on a course.

Even the most advanced VHF radio is VERY simple to use to its full potential in comparison to a smart phone.

For those who really want to know how to use all of their VHF functions all the info is in its instruction manual and on line for them to learn and revisit at their own leisure.

Most people I know and have spoken haven't qualified or registered as they don't want the hassle of :
A Travelling distances to the nearest test centre
B Expense of course / exam
C Are of an age where they haven't been in a classroom environment for many years and recoil in horror at the thought
D Would like the option of doing things at their own pace in the comfort of their own homes via the internet

In this digital age I think there would be a greater uptake if the whole course and exam could be done online (like the driving theory test) with a lower price tag attached to it. I would even champion having to recertify every 5 years by going online and doing refresher training and an online test. Let's be honest how much are you going to retain from a 1 day course in 10 years time??? For those who want to go and do the course in person then fine why have that option as well.


I am in total agreement with registration and some form of qualification to legally hold and use a VHF device. What I object to is there being no other option than having to go and do the course and exam and pay 60 quid for a 30 min exam or 100 quid for the day course and exam.

With regards to quantitive data regarding uptake figures I can only draw on my personal knowledge of guys who go fishing with me in small glass fibre boats and sibs. Of the ten I know 9 carry VHF but only two are qualified and registered most sight the reasons above for not registering and qualifying.


I think some of the guys on here who are defending the current set up have a vested interest in keeping things as they are as it provides them in part with a form of employment.

I await Poly's response

[gtb]

I guess one of the reasons for requiring all VHF users to be certified is that they are sharing the airwaves with commercial/professional traffic. Being trained and certified ensures that the leisure user is not disrupting those operations where a structured and clear flow of communication is obviously necessary.

If a group of mates are fishing or pottering around inshore and want to chat wirelessly, there are other options that don't require licenses and permits. Such options also mean it is unlikely you'll inadvertently step on some transmission from port ops or the coastguard as part of their commercial/professional work.

That said, VHF comes into its own when the leisure user needs to summon help reliably from the professionals, at which time I believe you are duty bound to play by the professionals' rules.

[stray]

Don't you need a licence to register for an M M S I number?

[gtb]

Originally Posted by stray

Don't you need a licence to register for an M M S I number?

You get an MMSI assigned when you get your ship / ship portable radio license from Ofcom.

[SPR]

FYI - the course format is NOT set by RYA or it's instructors - it's set the the CEPT & ITU.

This is why the course format changed, to bring it in line with other countries. and to ensure that the RYA course is accepted world.

S.





www.firstaidatsea.co.uk
www.SPRmarine.co.uk

[Poly]

I await Poly's response

I have only skimmed your diatribe. I found it hard to read through tears of laughter when you suggested that VHF was as simple and intuitive to use as smartphone. Perhaps you work for Icom, SH etc - because it SHOULD be that simple but its not.

[kaman]

Originally Posted by Poly

I have only skimmed your diatribe. I found it hard to read through tears of laughter when you suggested that VHF was as simple and intuitive to use as smartphone. Perhaps you work for Icom, SH etc - because it SHOULD be that simple but its not.

If you find vhf more complicated to get to grips with than utilizing the many features of a smart phone, then maybe you need more lessons?
Maybe should also be a week long residential course where you get a diploma at the end?
Do you make a living from teaching RYA courses?

Furthermore I don't take too kindly to your put downs - 'diatribe' and 'opinionated know it all student' 'tears of laughter ' etc etc

You don't know me from Adam or my background nor I you.
I expect better from some one on the admin team.

You have still not addressed my suggestion of an online learning and recertification package to get more people registered and trained ?
I ask myself why?

Last I checked this was an open forum where one can express their opinions on a given subject without fear of belittling from others, particularly from admin members.

I feel strongly that my vhf course as I stated earlier was tosh.
You did not sit in the classroom with me to experience what the lesson consisted of therefore you have NO basis to call me opinionated and a know it all.
Most of the others on the course came to the same conclusion as me.

Having read some of your sharp put down responses to others posts on other threads I could draw my own conclusions on what type of person you are and commit them to my own sarcastic words.
However I have better manners than that.

[John Kennett]

Hi kaman, you've made your views abundantly clear. You have put them across very forcefully and I don't think anyone will have any doubts about your opinions on the matter.

Taking out your frustrations on one of the volunteer moderators is not recommended though, and I strongly suggest that you calm down.

[Poly]

kaman - I was going to respond to your points in detail but I really can't be bothered - I have to go and pack for annoying Willk tomorrow. I have NO vested interest in RYA courses and as I said before if you search you will find my previous criticisms. However your rationale is all over the place - before discouraging others from doing legally required training I'd want to be clear in my own head that I knew why I was unhappy with the process.

[SeaSkills]

Kaman, I think it's a great shame that you had such a poor experience with your VHF course. Sadly, it is true that not all training courses are everything that we'd like them to be - either because the syllabus is poorly matched to our expectations or because the instructor is less skilled than we'd like. Please don't assume that all courses are tosh on the basis of your own bad experience

I do have a vested interest to declare - in fact, probably several vested interests. I have been an RYA instructor since 1973 and I run a RYA Training Centre that does offer VHF training and assessment. The feedback we have received from the hundreds of people who have trained with us (independent feedback as well as our own questionnaires) is generally very good, but we know that we can always get better, so we do listen and try to make what positive changes we can (I've read all the comments in this thread and mentally reviewed the way that we deliver our courses). As a "course seller", yes of course I think people should get trained ... but maybe not for the reason you expect. I left a well paid job to teach boating skills because a) it's what I love and b) because I get a real kick out of seeing people do things better than they did before. I think most people would accept that a good proportion of the radio communications we hear when we're afloat are poor quality. I hope we're managing to make some small improvement in the overall average. But I certainly couldn't make a living from it - we don't make much of a margin on radio courses

I also have an interest arising from over 30 years with the RNLI, and I know from personal experience what a difference it can make when a distress call is properly constructed and complete, and (as an earlier post said) it does make for a more efficient rescue when radio comms are conducted well. It's not the most important thing, but in those situations, the more things you get right, the better it is for everyone.

I have some sympathy with your suggestion to make online training and even re certification available. The new online course from the RYA is, in my opinion, very good. As indeed are many of the books that are available. Some people learn very well from books, but we are all different and different people have different learning styles - there are others whose best chance of learning will be in a face to face situation. We should try to cater for all of them, and the learning choices are pretty good these days. Technology is improving and maybe we'll see online assessments as well before long - but I don't think we're there quite yet.

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by kaman

.....one can express their opinions on a given subject without fear of belittling from others.....

Ohh! the irony

[Will75]

Even if you think that you know how to use a radio sufficiently well to help yourself, you have an obligation in law to go to the assistance of others should the need arise and therefore a solid knowledge of the formal radio procedures required to be involved in or even coordinate a rescue is paramount. If the course was poor that's bad luck but everyone has to learn the basics in the way prescribed for the benefit of all. I am sure the bar is set deliberately low so as to encourage as many people as possible to learn even a small amount such that they themselves are safer and more useful on the water. Like many on here, I have spent hours in the classroom and at sea and have all four marine radio licences and over thirty years on the water but I don't profess to know everything about marine radio or to remember the finer details of radio procedures. Even if you didn't learn anything, I am sure others will and do.

[ShinyShoe]

Meant to add - you don't need to go on a course to be qualified to ring 999.
We are dealing with professional people at the other end who are there to assist and deal in emergency situations.

The very first thing that happens when u dial 999 is they trace the call. If you do nothing else but say help you will get a police car to visit the landline address.

In effect DSC red button does the same thing. Yet very very few hit the red button it has a stigma of declaring all is lost. Look at some of the big shipping incidents and u see long delays to notify incidents.

I've made numerous 999/112 calls over the last 20 years. Some with life in imminent danger. I don't mind saying that at least once or twice I've been sh@ting bricks on that call. I've made 2222 calls in hospitals and been the same. I've had extensive training to mean I actually have been trained to dial 112 and 2222, despite that you miss details. fine on the phone not so good if you loose vhf link... Look for the MAIB report into the fishing boat off Stornoway last year... They had seconds to call. Boat name misheard. People died.

Originally Posted by Seaflyer02

If I remember correctly anyone (with or without passing the VHF test) can call for help in an emergency. Is everybody aware that transmissions on VHF are recorded?

In the Stornoway case they replayed the recording and got the correct name. But the location was never transmitted if I recall. So not transmitted can't be replayed.

Originally Posted by kaman

Smart phones don't come with instructions - you go online to find out how to perform the more technical tasks. Their owners don't have to go on a course.

Even the most advanced VHF radio is VERY simple to use to its full potential in comparison to a smart phone.
..

More like an old phone. Finding where some rubbish setting is stored in a menu can take an age.

So u don't program your mmsi. You don't interface ur GPS. Sh1t hits fan ... Not quite like not being able to switch off predictive text...

You want to send a pan pan/urgency call can u do it from red button. Hang on I'll just Google it. You are sinking. Can you just hit red or if you hit red will it ask what ur distress is so its sent? Oh no that's right the people who designed the specs for DSC didn't think of that so you have to go into a sub-menu to pick ur distress. Let me just Google the menu...

Your GPS is switched off on your smart phone and you open a map and it asks if you want to switch it on and it does it. No GPS signal on DSC you'll be lucky to be told. Unlucky and it sends your position an hour ago. It certainly doesn'ttirn an external GPS on.

You overhear a boat 2 miles from you close to cliffs send a mayday. His call goes unanswerd by CG. Should u relay it. Should you hit the big red to do the relay?

In this digital age I think there would be a greater uptake if the whole course and exam could be done online (like the driving theory test) with a lower price tag attached to it.

how would u know who sits the test? You'll get people doing tests for other people?
Is driving theory done online now?
How u going to do a practical call? You could have some form of Skype idea to an examiner but it needs a human assessor. Human costs money.

Originally Posted by stray

Don't you need a licence to register for an M M S I number?

No certificate of competence required.

Originally Posted by kaman

If you find vhf more complicated to get to grips with than utilizing the many features of a smart phone, then maybe you need more lessons?
Maybe should also be a week long residential course where you get a diploma at the end?

The cat A device one is I believe. But they can acknowledge maydays etc

Smart phone... Is there something in the name that makes u think it might be user friendly...

Unlike Cat D DSC VHF Marine Radio

Take people here s advice the time to wish you'd done the course is not when you are able deep in water..