Introduction

[VectisDragon]

Hi, I’m new to the forum as a member have been reading posts for a while. I have been lucky enough to have been given my first boat and outboard for free.

It is a Avon River R2.50 and a Honda BF2A. I have just finished stripping down the carb on the engine as has been sat in a garage for two years and got it running for first time this afternoon. I am initially planning to use it just around the Bay Area where we live.

My initial question is do I need to have a marine radio or is a mobile ok?

[beamishken]

The more safety gear you have the better but there are many of us who spent years boating without radios or mobile phones and lived to tell the tail
I'd put lifejackets, a decent pair of oars and anchor and warp ahead of a vhf.If your just dotting around in a bay your probably within reasonable rowing distance of the shore in that size boat

[jeffstevens763@g]

+1 BK the kitchen sink will always play a part be safe you will go for years not needing it but when you do !

[Lee1]

Get a Marine radio, it's like do you have AA or RAC for your car? Marine VHF is more than AA or RAC a radio can save your life and also give you peace of mind and confidence and also the ability to communicate with other boaters, defiantly get one, you need a licence from ofcom (it's free) and you should do a 1 day course or at lease read the Marine VHF book but you can call an emergency on channel 16 without a licence for now, YouTube Marine VHF
Also take your phone, more is better than less

[Fenlander]

>>>you need a licence from ofcom (it's free) and you should do a 1 day course or at lease read the Marine VHF book

Hi Vectis welcome to the forum.

Sadly Lee often posts completely incorrect information for reasons we do not understand. The radio licence is not free and can't be gained by just reading a book.

The licence is only issued after you have passed an exam for an SRC licence, this is largely practical based and held at at an RYA approved test centre. The cost of this is £60.

You will not pass the exam without taking either a one day classroom course or an online version which you can do in your own time (about 10hrs). Costs for the training vary from around £65 online to £100 in the classroom.

Here is an official Youtube video related (mostly) to the online course.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saIENFqqFHM

Lee is correct though that in an emergency an unlicenced person can call for help on a VHF

[Fenlander]

BTW I am not familiar with Totland Bay but I would say if you are new to boating and with such a small SIB and low powered outboard try and grasp and understanding of tide and weather (wind direction and strength in particular) as you could be in a position of not being able to make much headway against either.

Don't let that put you off but caution and understanding keeps you safe.

I'd echo Beamishken's advice re equipment.

[ShinyShoe]

Welcome to the forum ;-)

Ask a simple question get 15 opinions, all of which seem opposite to each other, 10 of which don't seem to relate to anything you asked for. Consider it like asking at the sailing club bar... take the information you get and make your own decisions...

Originally Posted by beamishken

The more safety gear you have the better but there are many of us who spent years boating without radios or mobile phones and lived to tell the tail

Although... ...those that didn't live to tell the tale might erm... not be here to post about it!

I'd put lifejackets, a decent pair of oars and anchor and warp ahead of a vhf.If your just dotting around in a bay your probably within reasonable rowing distance of the shore in that size boat

Certainly the lifejackets and the anchor. Oars may or may not be a token gesture depedning on the boat the location and the conditions.

Now to try and actually answer the question!

do I need to have a marine radio or is a mobile ok

Official guidance will always say VHF is better. So it is good to understand why they say that:

1. VHF is heard by everyone in the area. So you can instantly get help on its way from neighbouring boats.
2. Mobile phones need cell towers to work. There are no cell towers in the sea
3. You can hear announcements from CG (weather, safety info - drifting objects, other boats needing help)
4. Even out of range of CG masts, another boat can hear your cries for help and either come to help or pass them on for you
5. If they are struggling to find you. Lifeboats can zoom in on your VHF signal witha directional ariel. Not an option on mobile phones. What you see on CSI/NCIS/other American TV dramas where they triangulate your phone position is THEORY - it can be done - but not quickly and if you are in the sea - it is far less precise location as to triangulate you need multiple cells and you may be on a single cell.

In some circumstances a mobile phone will be adequate. You need to either find someone with local knowledge or perhaps a coverage map from your cell provider to know if you can get coverage where you are planning to go.

Mobile phones are rarely water proof and even if they are labelled as such they usually perform terribly when wet. It may work fine wet and then dried and still be classed as waterproof. So you need a waterproof bag. You need to be able to operate the phone in the bag, ideally it should float in the bag too.

In poor reception your phone battery may be guzzled much quicker than normal.

Text message may work when voice does not. There is a service to use 999 calls by text message - but you need to register for it in advance.

Originally Posted by Fenlander

Sadly Lee often posts completely incorrect information for reasons we do not understand.

On this occassion Lee1 is right though!

So lets be clear - to legally use a VHF radio in circumstances other than an emergency you need 2 pieces of paper:

- A Marine VHF Licence from Ofcom. It is free and you need no certificates etc to get it so there is no excuse not to get one. However, you'll struggle to find a 3m SIB owner who has ever been asked to show it!

- A Certificate of Competence. Not free. And as Fenlander says you need to sit a short exam for. There is absolutely no requirement that you have this to carry the radio. There is no requirement to have it to use the radio in an emergency. But to call the CG or another boat for something routine there is. If you don't have it, my opinion is you are less likely to use it where you are uncertain how much of an emergency it really is and so wait until it escalates. That is almost always the wrong thing to do on a boat. Again you'll find very few who have ever been asked to show their paperwork... ...although I suspect if things get very messy and there was an MAIB enquiry they might ask, especially if the mayday message was badly sent.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

...although I suspect if things get very messy and there was an MAIB enquiry they might ask, especially if the mayday message was badly sent.

If you are worrying about a few scornful words in a report by an investigative body with no enforcement powers you’ve got off lightly!

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Lee1

, defiantly get one,

Would it not be more defiant to not get one :-)

[Fenlander]

>>>On this occassion Lee1 is right though!

You are splitting hairs here... you know I am referring to the documentation to be fully legal.

To helpfully inform a newbie we should tell them that to be fully legal to own and operate a marine VHF will take a licence, course, exam & licence at total cost of £125 or more.

So for Lee to allude to it being free is misleading.

We all agree... and I have supported Lee in being correct... that in an emergency a licence/certificate is not needed.

[Poly]

Fendlander did you miss the bit where He said:

Originally Posted by Lee1

you need a licence from ofcom (it's free) and you should do a 1 day course

(I think he’s out of date as it’s now a bit more than a day)

Obviously you could be pedantic and suggest that the stronger modal verb must would be better than should, but I don’t think we need to be that petty to find things that Lee says to critique.

[Fenlander]

No saw that... just trying to give a newbie full info on what is needed to legally operate a marine VHF when they would not be expected to differentiate between licence/certificate/course/assessment etc.

Using the words... free... should.... at least read the Marine VHF book... Well they do not in any way indicate a day's course plus an exam and a cost of £125+.

[Lee1]

Originally Posted by Fenlander

>>>you need a licence from ofcom (it's free) and you should do a 1 day course or at lease read the Marine VHF book

Hi Vectis welcome to the forum.

Sadly Lee often posts completely incorrect information for reasons we do not understand. The radio licence is not free and can't be gained by just reading a book.

The licence is only issued after you have passed an exam for an SRC licence, this is largely practical based and held at at an RYA approved test centre. The cost of this is £60.

You will not pass the exam without taking either a one day classroom course or an online version which you can do in your own time (about 10hrs). Costs for the training vary from around £65 online to £100 in the classroom.

Here is an official Youtube video related (mostly) to the online course.

Lee is correct though that in an emergency an unlicenced person can call for help on a VHF

Nonsense! A ships portable ofcom VHF licence (both the ship base unit and a handheld) LICENCE is FREE (if you apply for it on line) once you have that licence your legally allowed to own the marine VHF radio to receive and listen to communication like coastguard exerts, weather reports, mayday and pan pan calls and you maybe able to assist in those calls, and you can use it an EMERGENCY, you can then decide to do the competence certificate course for £50-£100 to use it generally i.e. Transmit to other in general chit chat,, BUT in an emergency you can transmit and call on channel 16 without breaking the law if you do not have the competence certificate, I'm also sure this also applies if you make a channel 16 mayday call and you don't have a ofcom licence either.

It's the competence certificate that is NOT free, and I've yet to find a single prosecution against a ofcom licence person using a marine VHF in a non emergency without the competence certificate. Not that I recommend doing that but this is the true facts on this matter.
From a legal friend of mines comment on this I quote "as long as you had a valid ofcom licence the crown or ofcom would then only be able to prosecute on the use without the competence certificate, but if you could prove you were competent in the use of the radio where would that leave the judge or jury!
Once you send off your FREE portable VHF licence on line to ofcom which is what most people get to use a handheld radio SIBing and RIBing ofcom email you your FREE licence with your CALL SIGN! (Which you will need for any emergency use pending your competence certificate, if you chose to get one) your portable call sign will be something like T987909 and that's your portable call sign for as long as you have your FREE ofcom marine VHF licence.

This misconception is brought about by the competence day class companies who do not make it clear that you can go straight to ofcom to get a licence, you do not need the competence certificate to get a licence from ofcom, of course these competence course companies like to do it their way round, and tell you once you pass their competence course you get your licence that's wrong they just get you to apply for your licence after the completion course or send off your own application for you, but all included in the £129 lol
The actual right way it should be done is to get your ofcom licence first then you can listen to the radio, get use to its function (legally cos you have a licence) then take the competence TEST cos you won't need the whole day course after listening to the radio and doing your own on line or book revision! ah but then you also won't need the online training before that's often forced on people before the day course and combined test, oh no more money you've saved lol

About lee1 is wrong again. . . Really!

Here is the OFCOM link to get your FREE online Marine portable or ship VHF radio licence WITHOUT a competence certificate, it takes a only few minutes and requires no payment detail licence emailed to you next day with your ofcom Marine call sign!

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/manage-your...es/ships-radio

Screen shot, OFCOM Marine VHF portable or ship radio licence fees:
Online- FREE by post £20

[ATTACH]125389

[ShinyShoe]

Originally Posted by Lee1

It's the competence certificate that is NOT free, and I've yet to find a single prosecution against a ofcom licence person using a marine VHF in a non emergency without the competence certificate. Not that I recommend doing that but this is the true facts on this matter.

But maybe you should point out that he needs two bits of paper? Rather than say get 1 bit of paper and read a book.

From a legal friend comment on this I quote "as long as you had a valid ofcom licence the crown would then only be able to prosecute on the use without the competence certificate, but if you could prove you were competent in the use of the radio where would that leave the judge or jury!

Well it is Ofcom who will prosecute rather than the crown, that may seem nit picky - but it means that if you are found guilty the apportionment of costs can often be higher than any fine. Tread carefully! They might not prosecute often but your legal friend clearly hasn't actually read the law on the subject.

The Station's Licence states: "This Licence is subject to the terms and conditions in the Ship Radio Licence and Ship Portable Radio Licence Conditions Booklet." Section 45 of the Wireless Telegraphy Act 2006 allows them to create those T&Cs and apply them as law.

Use without the operator's certificate of competence other than in an emergency will be a breach of T&C 10(c). It is clear in 4(e) that the certificate needs to be issued by the SoS - your RYA Certificate states it was issued on behalf of the SoS. So you can argue all you want that the communications were competent, but if it was in a court the court would(should) say the act was illegal if you don't have authority from the SoS... In contrast, your VHF operation might not be competent, but if you have the authority from the SoS you wont be prosecuted for that.

The question is really about probability of that happening. A recreational boat owner, transmitting according to protocol etc... ...you'd be seriously unlucky to get caught. And even then, it seems unlikely you will end up in court - much more likely you get told to sort your paperwork out (probably formally in writing) and only go to court if you fail to do so and get caught again. But just occasionally something goes very wrong, and yet for whatever reason there doesn't seem to be a good way to prosecute. Sometimes someone will go looking for the thing to at least be seen to take some action...

It might be something similar to driving a car without an MOT. You can turn up in court and say here is all the proof possible that my car was safe and roadworthy at the time of the accident. But if you didn't have it MOTd at the time would you expect to leave court without any action?

So now that we've confused the OP about when he can use a VHF and with what bits of paper he will now be too scared to call when he has engine failure in an ebbing tide with a windward shore because he isn't sure if it is really an emergency and so he waits until he is 20 miles off shore and its got really really bad... when we could have just given the correct information up front.

once you have that licence your legally allowed to... <snip>... receive and listen to communication like coastguard exerts, weather reports, mayday and pan pan calls and you maybe able to assist in those calls,

Nope because: Section 12 of the T&Cs state: "12 Notwithstanding the terms set out in Clause 10 [requirement to have authority from the SoS]above, in the event of an emergency where there is a risk to life, the radio equipment may be used by any person to summon assistance."(My emphasis)
So - unless you are assisting by performing a Mayday Relay you aren't technically legally able to transmit as you aren't summoning assistance.

I'm not clear that listening without the SoS Authority is actually legal. The terms of the T&Cs say use of the equipment, not transmission... I may be splitting hairs. It may be hard to to prove. Depends what you told someone under caution when you were trying to prove you hadn't been an idiot setting to sea... "I listened to the CG forecast on the VHF radio before setting off"

BUT in an emergency you can transmit and call on channel 16 without breaking the law if you do not have the competence certificate, I'm also sure this also applies if you make a channel 16 mayday call and you don't have a ofcom licence either.

But you will have committed an offence by even owning the radio without the licence - so for the couple of hours while you are mayday messaging - you might make a reasonable 'excuse'. But the 6 months before that since buying the set you committee an offence... Still unlikely to get prosecuted for it. But hard to justify not having it as no cost and no requirement to prove anything etc...

[Lee1]

It is not an offence to own a radio if you have a ofcom licence! It is an offence to transmit a non emergency call with out your competence certificate that ofcom refer to in there terms and conditions (the terms and conditions refer to the use of the radio not the possession of the radio) of the licence, but the fact is ofcom give you the licence if you have yet to get your competence certificate I guess on the grounds that you will get one, the interesting point is this is done so you can legally own the radio, use it in an emergency all while your 'studding' for your competence test. Because if your not allowed to posses a radio how can you possible study for your competence test?


Anyone can apply anytime at the ofcom website linked above for a free licence and it's issued immediately, then your possession of a marine vhf radio is legal.

1: get a free office Marine radio licence online.
2: get your Marine radio and buy the Marine radio users book to get you started.
3: get your competence certificate, you can do the course with the combined test, or do your own studding and take and pan just the test, (competence course companies really do not like that lol)
4: if you don't want to use a Marine radio for general chat on the water with other boaters or chose not to get competence certificate at least having read the book you will know how the radio works, how to make a call properly and what channel to use in an emergency. if that's all you want the radio for.

Ofcom cannot personally prosecute someone, if it's a criminal prosecution then it must be prosecuted by the crown on instructions from the CPS, or maybe ofcom take legal action in the civil court?i don't know for sure I'm not a lawyer but I researched this for a friend last year and passed on what my legal friend advised on his brief reading on the matter (he is not a communications offence expert QC) his just a criminal law solicitor!) Ofcom are a government body, I suspect it would work like 3 party prosecution, ofcom would prepare a file and send it to the CPS the CPS would then have to make a charging decision which is based on. . . Firstly The likleyhood of a conviction and most importantly is the prosecution in the public interest. Police do have power of arrest for any unlicensed radio use in the first instance under the communications act just like they could arrest someone transmitting a pirate radio station from a tower block, but it would be ofcom to peruse and prepare the prosecution and forward the case and evidence to the CPS, I suspect unless it was a serious and dangerous misuse under the communications act there would be no prosecution, I agree as the above poster doubt a boater using a radio with a LICENCE but not a competence certificate to call in a general communication would be prosecuted. I do remember searching for any conviction for such and found non, I did find a single prosecution in a year by ofcom for an unlicensed ham radio user who was parking up outside other ham users homes and keying up over their communications with his mobile car unit. But I believe that this case was only approved for prosecution by the CPS due to the home harassment factor of his actions that went far beyond a communications offence.

Thread has gone on somewhat, but this is what forums are about, we have covered all aspects and posted all the actual facts in this matter, whether prosecution is likely for a minor communications offence is doubtful, but why not stay legal and at least get licensed (and competent) many users are not licensed at all, getting your ofcom licence gives you a call sign and making a mayday call with your call sign is very important and your mayday will be responded to without the delay that it could be a hoax call, what you gonna say without a call sign, this is Steve or this is Mr Smith lol, but most important of all whatever you chose to do, if you use a boat get a Marine VHF and know how to use it and never go out without it, it may well save your or other lives!

[Poly]

Wow, who’d have thought a simple question could attract so much unnecessary waffle.

Lee - I’d get a new lawyer - Ofcom can and do prosecute in the criminal courts for a variety of offences directly in England and Wales (and possibly NI) just as HSE, the MCA, and other enforcement bodies do.

Perhaps your “friend” should have been looking at the Wirelesss Telegraphy Act rather than the Communication Act.

[Poly]

Lee - when did you last hear a call sign used, whether in distress or otherwise? Most people just use the boats name - and of course use the offcom issued MMSI number their DSC set transmits. Did you not learn that on the course before your exam?

[ShinyShoe]

Originally Posted by Lee1

It is not an offence to own a radio if you have a ofcom licence! It is an offence to transmit a non emergency call with out your competence certificate that ofcom refer to in there terms and conditions (the terms and conditions refer to the use of the radio not the possession of the radio) of the licence, but the fact is ofcom give you the licence if you have yet to get your competence certificate I guess on the grounds that you will get one, the interesting point is this is done so you can legally own the radio, use it in an emergency all while your 'studding' for your competence test. Because if your not allowed to posses a radio how can you possible study for your competence test?

The offence is 'use' not transmission. Listening counts as use in the law.

I didn't own a VHF when I did my cert of competence. So there is no need to own the radio to study.

The reason you don't need to have a cert of competence to own the radio is because the ownership and license sits with the vessel. A vessel can not hold a certificate of competence, and the vessel owner may not ever be competent - he/she may employ one or more crew for that.

Ofcom cannot personally prosecute someone, if it's a criminal prosecution then it must be prosecuted by the crown on instructions from the CPS, or maybe ofcom take legal action in the civil court?

No it is criminal court. Ofcom would be the prosecution authority unless the police investigated in which case CPS would prosecute. Just like a MCA offence or a H&S offence. Either can prosecute. The decision of who prosecutes lies with who investigates, who holds the evidence, who has the technical expertise.

. But I believe that this case was only approved for prosecution by the CPS due to the home harassment factor of his actions that went far beyond a communications offence.

An example where the police likely were asked to investigate / support the investigation and where the offence charged was perhaps not really what they were looking for but say a 'Harrassment charge's might be hard to make stick but the Ham Radio charge is easy to prove

getting your ofcom licence gives you a call sign and making a mayday call with your call sign is very important and your mayday will be responded to without the delay that it could be a hoax call, what you gonna say without a call sign, this is Steve or this is Mr Smith lol, but most important of all whatever you chose to do, if you use a boat get a Marine VHF and know how to use it and never go out without it, it may well save your or other lives!

My callsign is about as much use as an ice cube in the north pole. On a handheld it is a T number. I've NEVER heard a T number given on the air. If you have DSC an MMSI *is* useful. If I am on a random boat the boat name and type will be my primary call identifier. So if I happen to be on a boat called Mister Smith I may well be calling... "UK Coastguard, UK Coastguard this is Yacht Mr Smith, Mr Smith, over".

But even if my 7 year old picks up the radio and says "help my dad has fallen in the water" with no radio protocol... No callsign, no certificate etc . I'm expecting UK CG treats that as real till proven otherwise.

[Highland Haggis]

Three times your call sign you can’t even give out that information right lee1 if you can’t put something decent up which makes sense stop posting [emoji41]