New to boating

stevie6527 · 24 June 2018, 11:27

Hi folks,

Firstly thank you for adding me to the site it has been very insightful, I'm new to boating and will be looking to purchase my first RIB at the end of July. A concern of mine is there is no HIN on the transom of the one I'm interested in, and I'm looking for any advice on where else to find it and does it pose a problem with insurance.

Thanks

Steven

Poly · 24 June 2018, 16:54

Stevie,

I’ve never been asked for the HIN for insurance purposes. Outboard s/n yes, but never the hull.

Really any reasonably recent run should have a CE plate on it, but sometimes they are removed, sometimes they are illegible, sometimes the boat was originally commercial so never fitted. Some larger manufacturers put the HIN in a second less obvious location but it will need a geek on that particular boat to tell you where to look.

Personally my only concern would be if the boat could be stolen.

stevie6527 · 24 June 2018, 19:29

Poly

Thanks for the reply, this may seem a stupid question how would I be able to verify if the rib is stolen. there is an SN on the engine and chassis No on the trailer but those could be replaced. I do trust the seller but just looking to assure all doubts.

Cheers

ShinyShoe · 24 June 2018, 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevie6527

Poly

Thanks for the reply, this may seem a stupid question how would I be able to verify if the rib is stolen. there is an SN on the engine and chassis No on the trailer but those could be replaced. I do trust the seller but just looking to assure all doubts.

Cheers

What you looking at - in case someone can point you to where to look.

BUT in terms of theft -- the most valuable bit (at least for re-sale) is usually the engine so you wouldn't normally nick a complete boat strip the engine off and replace it with a legit engine! But if there is a good back story you can usually tell if someone is telling the truth... ...in the same way as the RYA ask for a log of sailing journeys when going for certain exams... you can spot the people who are making it up by asking them questions... What did they use the RIB for, where have they been, how many people have they carried on it etc. Its not so much what they answer it is how confidently they answer, how much detail they are prepared to give etc.

Poly · 24 June 2018, 21:04

You can never be 100% sure. Searching the engine serial number and trailer plate number would likely show up either on our own stolen boats thread or elsewhere on the net IF the owner had those details. The engine serial number is usually somewhere unremarkable on the actual block as well.

Obviously that doesn’t eliminate the possibility that it’s a legit engine and trailer on a stolen hull, but I think you are looking at a rare situation in the UK for that. Paperwork helps a lot, ideally from this seller showing when he bought it (and/or stored it, or serviced it etc), and ideally from previous owners too. All boats can get stolen, but some are more likely to be resold in the UK than others - mass produced anonymous boats are more anonymous than Scorpion, Redbay or Ribcrafts where the factory likely knows much of its history. It’s likely easier to resell a stolen leisure type boat to a first time ribbing family than something that specialist to experienced owners - because the details won’t stack up.

So, judgement, as much backup paperwork as possible, and any extra diligence you can do are all you can do to reduce the risk. If it’s particularly high value you might also want to check there is no finance secured on it. Not sure how you can do that unless it has a marine mortgage on it (when it should have a registration number).

goearth · 24 June 2018, 21:21

Unfortunately, there is a potential VAT problem.

If you buy a used boat (any type) in the UK, you do not have to pay VAT on it; as it is assumed that VAT was paid when the boat was first purchased. However, IN THEORY, HMRC could ask to see the paperwork proving this; and for this you would need to show a trail of invoices going back to the original purchase. IN PRACTICE, this may not be much of a problem; but if you take it abroad (esp if outside the EU) and bring it back to the UK, then this MAY cause an issue.

I would strongly advise you to look carefully at the paperwork (as Poly and others say) that you are provided with the boat before you commit to a purchase.

You may also want to look at:
VAT on boats: a guide - boats.com

Happy to provide some more (free!!) informal suggestions if you want to phone me during reasonable hours, or fill in the contact form at www.boatsearch.earth .

Necessary legal notice! The above is not formal legal or taxation advice - if you have concerns then see a qualified practitioner.

ShinyShoe · 24 June 2018, 23:55

Other than the CI's and IoM where outside the EU is he likely to take a RIB?

Can't see a RIB returning from short stay CIs or IoM being asked about VAT status.

Turkey feels a LONG drive with a RIB from Scotland.

Poly · 25 June 2018, 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

Other than the CI's and IoM where outside the EU is he likely to take a RIB?

Can't see a RIB returning from short stay CIs or IoM being asked about VAT status.

Turkey feels a LONG drive with a RIB from Scotland.

The possible VAT issue applies in the EU too. E.g. French authorities are reportedly much more rigorous than the UK ones on paperwork. That is unlikely to get easier in a Brexit world.

beerbelly · 25 June 2018, 07:11

I travelled a long way to look at buying a rib once the rib was in fantastic condition took it out it ran well and ticked all the boxes .but had no hin number .I rang the manufacturer who stated categorically that it would have had a hin at the time of sale when it was new and I was advised that in the event of an insurance claim it would be hard to put a value on the hull.(I think the one I was looking at was an older hull than I was being told and had been re gell coated and re tubed which wouldn't have been a problem if I hadn't felt Id been told less than the full story )so I walked.
oh and I have just renewed my insurance on my current rib and went with a new company who did ask for the hull hin

Pikey Dave · 25 June 2018, 08:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poly

The possible VAT issue applies in the EU too. E.g. French authorities are reportedly much more rigorous than the UK ones on paperwork. That is unlikely to get easier in a Brexit world.

Very true, we had to get a retrospective TL2 issued before we went to Croatia last year AND, the Croatian authorities checked it, even though it's actually a worthless bit of paper & doesn't even relate to private boats. But there you go, if it keeps the man with the gun happy, so be it. We're looking at Portugal this year & there are cases where a TL2 has been demanded. Most European countries will require proof of VAT paid if you get inspected, which most often happens at the ferry port in our case.
http://www.rya.org.uk/newsevents/new...tsforaT2L.aspx

goearth · 25 June 2018, 09:07

Some 'rules'
- Your boat must have a HIN
- You must have sufficient paperwork to demonstrate a chain of ownership - both from the 'it's not been stolen' perspective and from the VAT perspective
- depending on the cost of the RIB, consider a survey (not really viable at the lower end of the market).

Unfortunately, RIBs do seem to be more prone to being stolen and other dodgy dealings. Nothing to be too worried about - just take a professional approach to buying a RIB. If the paperwork is in order, it should be OK. Never just walk past a RIB, fall in love with it (it does happen!) and buy it without thinking.

Please don't let the various bits of advice put you off buying a RIB - we have just had a really great time in a (big) RIB off the south west coast of Menorca. (Even saw some baby Manta Ray!!) Just take a bit of care when buying.

beamishken · 25 June 2018, 11:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by goearth

Some 'rules'
- Your boat must have a HIN
- You must have sufficient paperwork to demonstrate a chain of ownership - both from the 'it's not been stolen' perspective and from the VAT perspective
- depending on the cost of the RIB, consider a survey (not really viable at the lower end of the market).

Unfortunately, RIBs do seem to be more prone to being stolen and other dodgy dealings. Nothing to be too worried about - just take a professional approach to buying a RIB. If the paperwork is in order, it should be OK. Never just walk past a RIB, fall in love with it (it does happen!) and buy it without thinking.

Please don't let the various bits of advice put you off buying a RIB - we have just had a really great time in a (big) RIB off the south west coast of Menorca. (Even saw some baby Manta Ray!!) Just take a bit of care when buying.

Many pre 1998 boats had no hin no whilst a chain of ownership is prefered in many cases it is impossible to obtain or expect especialy with lower value boats
You will likely never be asked for a full chain of ownership papers by any authority in the uk. You may if going abroad but many many owners will not want to go abroad so won't realy care
Dont be put off a good boat because of a lack of paper trail many totaly genuine boats have no paper trail especialy older ones.
Yes there are stolen boats around but they are a fairly small percentage of those for sale and can usualy be spotted fairly easily