2 stroke or 4 stroke

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by Inflatable

Short answer 4 stroke my opinion

How have you arrived at that opinion if you don’t mind me asking?

[kerny]

After having an Etec 60 on my 5.4 rib which struggled to get me 29 knots with a 17 pitch Ali prop I have now replaced it with a Suzuki df70a.

With the same size prop on the Suzi the holeshot was awesome but top end 30 knots revving out at 6000

I have now replaced the prop up to a 19 pitch and the holeshot is still awesome and I'm getting 35 knots at 5.8 revs 2 up with 90 ltrs fuel plus the usual equipment on board.

The Etec 60 is 2 cylinder and weighs in at 109 kg.

The Suzuki 70 is 4 cylinders and weighs in at 155kg

Needles to say that I am happy with the Suzuki's performance . Maybe the extra 2 cylinders and extra 10 horse's has something to do with it, but there is the extra weight to consider. Also I'm getting a mile and a half to the litre which was the same as the Etec.

[smallribber]

Get a twin with one of each

[jonp]

Interesting to see how different the views are from across the pond. Having moved here to Australia from the UK first thing I noticed was how almost every house has a boat in the yard. For a country so big yet with only a population the size of London, its quite surprising there are over 250,000 regestered boats in my state alone. Boats need to be registered if they are capable of doing more than 10 knots, meaning there are far more boat owners than the 250000, also yaughts don't need registration.

With the above in mind and also the fact I've worked as a marine rescue volunteer in two different states, one where we had in excesses of 2000 boats launch at the eight lanes of boat ramps, 400 at my present location. I feel Ive been in a great position to see what outboards are most popular and which fail the most. Those who spout the reliability of modern two strokes should spend a little time around these busy locations and speak with as many boat owners as possible.

Unlike my days of boating in the UK ( 21 years & 20 here) here we are exposed to wide open oceans, large ground swells and air temperatures effecting the daily wind conditions. The range most travel here is also way beyond what most would consider for a day out, sea mounts and continental drop offs are many km offshore which can take several hours to reach even at high speeds in deep v rough water handling boats.

In regards to servicing costs, those who pay the manufactures hourly rates and time quoted to do a simple service are being ripped off big time. I use a fully qualified mechanic with the best reputation of heard of anywhere, he works mobile as most of the boats he services are from the comercial sector ( it's hard towing a boat with triple 300's to a workshop). My little Yan f70 costs around £90 to have the fuel filter, oil filter, gearbox oil, engine oil, impelor replaced and anodes checked, taking around 1hr 30 max. Yamaha state this to be a 4.5hr service at $130 per hour labour alone and many charge this because they legally can. I put a good friend onto this same mechanic who was sick of having to lose a day off work to take his outfit with a 300 suzuki 2hrs down the coast for servicing, the $1500 minimum cost also hurt the pocket too. Now my mate has the service done on his drive at home at a cost of $450, all work is warranted and doesn't effect manufactures warranty.

The few people I do know with modern 2 strokes have all had issues, many gearbox at before 500 hrs and also powerheads before 750 hrs. Many 4 stroke users I know are putting hours of up to 10000 on their engines over 4-5 years without issues.

Speaking the honest truth that can all be fully backed up in any court of law seems to offend some people. I have no affiliation with any brand and no loyalty to staying with a particular manufacture, when time to replace I go off reputable mechanics and what ever brand suits my need a the time. Resale value is also forefront of my choice as I seldom keep any outfit more than 2-3years, simply to many boats and engines to enjoy out there than to be stuck with the same one to long.

[spartacus]

Can't believe this question is doing the rounds again. It's always going to be subjective.

Depending where you are based, then maintaining warranty on a new 4-stroke engine is key, in terms of servicing and maintenance and the relationship you have with the dealer. There's also the cost of replacing a mid-engined outboard with a new 4-stroke for the best part of £5-6k, for what is in effect a leisure activity and that's not including running costs. My missus is understanding, but she'd have my clothes in black bags on the lawn if I turned up with a new engine.

For me, I've always had 2-strokes. I service my own boat engines, including cars and have done for as long as I can remember. Suits my personal circumstances and I don't plan on changing any time soon.

[gpsguru]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

I would still maintain that the mechanical simplicity of 2 strokes suits the marine environment better that 4s, but that’s just my opinion fwiw.

The modern 2 DI stroke is a complicated beast with an ECM driving it ........... most seems to have there own particular issues, as an example ETEC's seem to suffer from melted lower exhaust manifolds (plastic), broken mount side castings, and all too common is the ECM issue which will leave you dead in the water.

However, I would agree that the older 2 stroke was simplicity and always easy to get going unless a catastrophic failureoccured.

But ........ most of the modern 4 strokes will go into 'limp' mode to get you home, even dropping a cylinder or 2 if the need arises.

Yes, servicing costs are vastly more with a 4 stroke but a modern 2 stoke component failure can leave a big hole in your wallet ........... having said that, I fixed a Merc F100 with a new starter recently and that was £400+ just for the starter motor ........

Go with the flow Dave .......... you might be nearly retired but you are not old yet !!!! and I would agree that the Suzuki df140a does seem to be a 'lazy' engine. I helm a 25ft offshore going out 55+ miles into the channel (half way to frogland for us) with a pair of them and many a time I have questioned as to whether the output is actually a 140 ponies

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by gpsguru

The modern 2 DI stroke is a complicated beast with an ECM driving it ........... most seems to have there own particular issues, as an example ETEC's seem to suffer from melted lower exhaust manifolds (plastic), broken mount side castings, and all too common is the ECM issue which will leave you dead in the water.

However, I would agree that the older 2 stroke was simplicity and always easy to get going unless a catastrophic failureoccured.

But ........ most of the modern 4 strokes will go into 'limp' mode to get you home, even dropping a cylinder or 2 if the need arises.

Yes, servicing costs are vastly more with a 4 stroke but a modern 2 stoke component failure can leave a big hole in your wallet ........... having said that, I fixed a Merc F100 with a new starter recently and that was £400+ just for the starter motor ........

Go with the flow Dave .......... you might be nearly retired but you are not old yet !!!! and I would agree that the Suzuki df140a does seem to be a 'lazy' engine. I helm a 25ft offshore going out 55+ miles into the channel (half way to frogland for us) with a pair of them and many a time I have questioned as to whether the output is actually a 140 ponies

I agree that I’m on a hiding to nowhere & it’s ironic that I’m a current owner of a 4s extolling the virtues of 2s.
Back in the 80’s there was a rush to 4s by all the major manufacturers, originally led by Honda iirc, who were relatively minor players in the outboard market. Suddenly all the punters wanted the quiet, clean, efficient 4s. The only problem was they were lardy & tended to dissolve in seawater (Hondas were called “Aspirins” for this reason). Consequently there was a dash to 4s leaving just the OMC FICHt, later to become the Etec, and the Optimax as major players in the large block 2s game. So all the R&D went into 4s. Now I’d be the first to admit the Etec isn’t perfect, but what we have now is a situation where the faults of one engine are used to tarnish the whole technology i.e 2 strokes are crap because of the faults with Etec. If it was the other way around & only Honda made 4s & all the advances by all the manufactures had gone into 2 stroke. We would now be in the position where 2 stroke engines were lighter, more powerful, cheaper etc. This conversion would be along the lines of why do you want to stick one of those useless heavy lumps on the back.
I’m not arguing for Etec per se, I’m suggesting that 2stroke tech is better suited to the marine application. I think we’ve missed a trick by jumping on the 4s bandwagon.

[HUMBER P4VWL]

Originally Posted by jonp

Interesting to see how different the views are from across the pond. Having moved here to Australia from the UK first thing I noticed was how almost every house has a boat in the yard. For a country so big yet with only a population the size of London, its quite surprising there are over 250,000 regestered boats in my state alone. Boats need to be registered if they are capable of doing more than 10 knots, meaning there are far more boat owners than the 250000, also yaughts don't need registration.



With the above in mind and also the fact I've worked as a marine rescue volunteer in two different states, one where we had in excesses of 2000 boats launch at the eight lanes of boat ramps, 400 at my present location. I feel Ive been in a great position to see what outboards are most popular and which fail the most. Those who spout the reliability of modern two strokes should spend a little time around these busy locations and speak with as many boat owners as possible.



Unlike my days of boating in the UK ( 21 years & 20 here) here we are exposed to wide open oceans, large ground swells and air temperatures effecting the daily wind conditions. The range most travel here is also way beyond what most would consider for a day out, sea mounts and continental drop offs are many km offshore which can take several hours to reach even at high speeds in deep v rough water handling boats.



In regards to servicing costs, those who pay the manufactures hourly rates and time quoted to do a simple service are being ripped off big time. I use a fully qualified mechanic with the best reputation of heard of anywhere, he works mobile as most of the boats he services are from the comercial sector ( it's hard towing a boat with triple 300's to a workshop). My little Yan f70 costs around £90 to have the fuel filter, oil filter, gearbox oil, engine oil, impelor replaced and anodes checked, taking around 1hr 30 max. Yamaha state this to be a 4.5hr service at $130 per hour labour alone and many charge this because they legally can. I put a good friend onto this same mechanic who was sick of having to lose a day off work to take his outfit with a 300 suzuki 2hrs down the coast for servicing, the $1500 minimum cost also hurt the pocket too. Now my mate has the service done on his drive at home at a cost of $450, all work is warranted and doesn't effect manufactures warranty.



The few people I do know with modern 2 strokes have all had issues, many gearbox at before 500 hrs and also powerheads before 750 hrs. Many 4 stroke users I know are putting hours of up to 10000 on their engines over 4-5 years without issues.



Speaking the honest truth that can all be fully backed up in any court of law seems to offend some people. I have no affiliation with any brand and no loyalty to staying with a particular manufacture, when time to replace I go off reputable mechanics and what ever brand suits my need a the time. Resale value is also forefront of my choice as I seldom keep any outfit more than 2-3years, simply to many boats and engines to enjoy out there than to be stuck with the same one to long.

But you have to some degree flawed your own argument for 4S over here.

In the UK most casual boat owners do sub 500hrs over 5-10yrs. They just play, ski and do 5 mile trips to bats and pubs, so holeshot is likely key. Therefore unlike in Oz, gearbox and powerhead issues aren’t an issue. Safety wise most wont be more than a mile from the coast either. Cost wise, Annual servicing is almost pointless but a must for warranty, so an etec 2S with limited service and cheaper when it needs it is probably best.

Though we’ve just gone from 175hp Opti to a 200hp 4s Merc [emoji1] We’re yet to see if the grunt of the modern new light Merc 4S lives up to the opti

I do hope I’m not going to fee like Pikey Dave in 6months. [emoji15]

That said, as Kerny did, we’re going up 25hp and from 2.5L to 3.4L, but little increase in weight for us.

[willk]

Originally Posted by jonp

The few people I do know with modern 2 strokes have all had issues, many gearbox at before 500 hrs ...

Piece of sh1t, 2 stroke gearboxes...

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by willk

Piece of sh1t, 2 stroke gearboxes...

Maybe 4stroke gearboxes last longer due to the limp wristed torque delivery of 4 strokes[emoji6]

[Ribtecer]

For what it's worth, I agree totally with PD.

I have had lots of outboard driven boats over the years and must have lost a fortune.

I have just bought a project keeper which will, when finished, be the best of my compromises / £££ / time on the water etc etc.

I have bought a under used well/dry stored Ribtec 535 for use around the Solent, lunch in Cowes, that sort of thing. When finished it will be my perfect boat, sat on a trailer under cover at home waiting for use if and when. And most importantly when it's not being used it won't be costing money. It came with a Mariner 60 which i have sold

So what is my choice of power for my perfect craft that I do not plan on selling?

Yamaha 90AETOL 90HP 2 Stroke of course

I have bought one with 90 hours on the time clock, which I believe is true. It was a risk I know that, it has cosmetic damage that will sort once I am sure it's as good as I think it is.

But I really think it is the perfect engine for reliable infrequent leisure use. Yes 4 strokes are a little more efficient, but if the day costs me an extra £1 who cares.

What I want is a fast dependable good looking rig that is light (whole lot has to be under 750kg for unbraked trailer) for easy use use when I want.

Yamaha Two Stroke for me all day long - hope I don't eat my words!!!

Ribtecer

[jonp]

Some seem to forget they are driving 4 stroke cars day after day, simply replacing oil, filters and plugs occasionally. Many 4 stroke outboards have marinised car or motorcycle engines. There's nothing special to warrant exorbitant price hikes in servicing apart from what a dealer decides to charge you.

I don't remember ever going into limp home mode in any car in my lifetime or any boat with a 4 stroke, been in a few diesels that have broken down though.

[Fender]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

Maybe 4stroke gearboxes last longer due to the limp wristed torque delivery of 4 strokes[emoji6]

There not all limp wristed - a few 4 stokes have a little punch
And...........the superchargers help with that twisting motion

[gpsguru]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

Maybe 4stroke gearboxes last longer due to the limp wristed torque delivery of 4 strokes[emoji6]

I think that the torque issue is now being addressed by engines with more 'cubes' that can make better use of fuel and timing mapping...............

Buying an older tech 2 stroke is a bit like going out and buying a car with a points distributor and carbs .......... or buying a windup watch !, however, I think that modern tech 2 stroke outboards perhaps require a little more R&D investment to iron out the few bugs that still exist ....... The ETEC G2 might well have cracked it as I have not heard anything bad about them (yet)

Modern 4 stroke outboards have come a long way over the last 5 to 10 years and are now very reliable, quiet, and frugal .......... some of the newer models are being designed to give that low end grunt that we all missed (like the Merc Pro XS)

However, I think the emission laws are an ar$e ........... I bet that in the UK alone there were 1000 x more 2 stroke strimmers, brushcutters, stone cutters, & chainsaws sold on an annual basis than 2 stroke outboards !

[Xk59D]

the annual 2v4 debate is in full sway.

Couple of things, way i look at it is 2 strokes are just paying for your service as you go with drip feeding oil. Since you can only buy ETEC's new now from factory (optimax is gone, only old stock left) XD100 is about £40 on a quick Google for a US gallon and at a ratio of 70:1 (which seems to be roughly correct based on another quick google for cruise) on average that is 280 litres fuel for a gallon of oil.

round numbers time, the average UK boater is 60 hours per year last time i checked?. using my fuel burn figures since i know them. cruise 28 mph burning 25 lph then i'm going to need a gallon of oil every 10-11 ish hours of cruise. so the average 60 hour boater with my fuel burn will need 5-6 gallons of XD100 per annum which is 5.5 x £40= £220.

if i do 100 hours per year at cruise then i need 2500 litres of fuel and at 70:1 i need 35.7 litres or 9 gallons of xd100 which is £360.

Lets extropolate to 5 years-

2 stroke-

60 hour boater with my fuel burn is £1100 for 5 years of oil plus 1 (or 2?) service will be in the region of £1380 total if 1 service and assuming my 4 stroke service pricing, the oil is cheap part of service, the money is impeller, filters etc.

100 hour boater with my fuel burn is £1800 for 5 years of oil plus 1 (or 2?) service giving £2080 cost of ownership.

My 4 stroke service for 5 years-

60 hours- £280x 4 and £400 x1 for 5 years with my engine= £1520 in service costs

100 hours- £1520 as costs are fixed, you could maybe get away with 120 hours as there is leeway when you get the service done hours wise, the 2 stroke will always need oil for those hours which are now "free".

lastly, i personally care about hole shot in the sense my 100hp 4 stroke was pants but the 200 v6 i have now i can't imagine it being much better with an etec and i would have no problems pulling skiers, toys etc with 8 passangers if i wanted.

so what am i getting at, in the grand scheme of things the servicing is of little difference to the overall cost of ownership for my boat and certainly not a game changer one way or the other for me.

The other thing that would be good to know is what resale is like, you hear people saying it is more difficult to sell 2 strokes but only 4% of the market bought ETEC's last year (as per BRP figures), i don't know what optimax done.

i suspect the trade in/resale value after 5 years or initial purchase price would cost more than the service difference. It is like paying more for a diesel car over petrol equivelent, you pay more up front but get it back other side.

My prediction is evinrude will bring out a 4 stroke within next 5 years and the g2 will be the last 2 stroke, 4% market share can't be where they want to be long term and selling only 2 strokes doesn't seem to be working. They are not putting out 10 year warranties for sake of it, it is a classic sales tactic that upfront costs nothing so they are at the nothing to lose stage. Take the money today and hope they don't need to pay warranty tomorrow, although it is a good differentiator I admit which seems to have got them some traction with people who would never buy one previously and fair play to them.

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by Xk59D

the annual 2v4 debate is in full sway.

Couple of things, way i look at it is 2 strokes are just paying for your service as you go with drip feeding oil. Since you can only buy ETEC's new now from factory (optimax is gone, only old stock left) XD100 is about £40 on a quick Google for a US gallon and at a ratio of 70:1 (which seems to be roughly correct based on another quick google for cruise) on average that is 280 litres fuel for a gallon of oil.

round numbers time, the average UK boater is 60 hours per year last time i checked?. using my fuel burn figures since i know them. cruise 28 mph burning 25 lph then i'm going to need a gallon of oil every 10-11 ish hours of cruise. so the average 60 hour boater with my fuel burn will need 5-6 gallons of XD100 per annum which is 5.5 x £40= £220.

if i do 100 hours per year at cruise then i need 2500 litres of fuel and at 70:1 i need 35.7 litres or 9 gallons of xd100 which is £360.

Lets extropolate to 5 years-

2 stroke-

60 hour boater with my fuel burn is £1100 for 5 years of oil plus 1 (or 2?) service will be in the region of £1380 total if 1 service and assuming my 4 stroke service pricing, the oil is cheap part of service, the money is impeller, filters etc.

100 hour boater with my fuel burn is £1800 for 5 years of oil plus 1 (or 2?) service giving £2080 cost of ownership.

My 4 stroke service for 5 years-

60 hours- £280x 4 and £400 x1 for 5 years with my engine= £1520 in service costs

100 hours- £1520 as costs are fixed, you could maybe get away with 120 hours as there is leeway when you get the service done hours wise, the 2 stroke will always need oil for those hours which are now "free".

lastly, i personally care about hole shot in the sense my 100hp 4 stroke was pants but the 200 v6 i have now i can't imagine it being much better with an etec and i would have no problems pulling skiers, toys etc with 8 passangers if i wanted.

so what am i getting at, in the grand scheme of things the servicing is of little difference to the overall cost of ownership for my boat and certainly not a game changer one way or the other for me.

The other thing that would be good to know is what resale is like, you hear people saying it is more difficult to sell 2 strokes but only 4% of the market bought ETEC's last year (as per BRP figures), i don't know what optimax done.

i suspect the trade in/resale value after 5 years or initial purchase price would cost more than the service difference. It is like paying more for a diesel car over petrol equivelent, you pay more up front but get it back other side.

My prediction is evinrude will bring out a 4 stroke within next 5 years and the g2 will be the last 2 stroke, 4% market share can't be where they want to be long term and selling only 2 strokes doesn't seem to be working. They are not putting out 10 year warranties for sake of it, it is a classic sales tactic that upfront costs nothing so they are at the nothing to lose stage. Take the money today and hope they don't need to pay warranty tomorrow, although it is a good differentiator I admit which seems to have got them some traction with people who would never buy one previously and fair play to them.

....So there!
(Can't argue with much of that Paul)

Personally I think like so much else ...it all depends on the Boat.. Set up...personal choice! ...And of course Budget!...

With smaller RIB's showing more of the beneficial qualitys acociated with two strokes... the 90 Yam 2stroke on a 5.4 Avon was/is a perfect fit...a pairing giving decent handling/capabilities on a Budget.
My friend Neil's Solent RIB handles impeccably and is balanced GREAT with a Big 225 Opti ...likewise the 130 etec on Mr Jingles gives outstanding performance...

For my part the 250 Suz four stroke on my RC 6.8 is a perfect fit! 48knts and at 25knts JUST over 1litre a mile....So like so many things Horses for courses...

Again many Diesels don't really suit the type of Boating I do ...BUT ...
..IF I found a 1/4 million +Goldfish twin diesel 80knot Package in my Christmas stocking ...would I send it back to Santa!??

IMO the main thing WHATEVER set up you choose for your individual needs is keeping it well maintained (reliability) and learning how to handle it in all conditions ..THEN ..The locations type of Boating that suits you..and most importantly the company you choose to spend your oh so important down time with
The rest just keeps Forums such as this ...something to Gas about

[jonp]

Resale this side of the pond on modern two strokes is very poor, however the old basic carby models still fetch good money. Where 4 strokes are rediculusy expensive, even old ones of comercial vessels with large hours. I simply don't understand anyone paying big money for an old engine they have very little history of. My mate bought twin Yamaha f150's with 3000 hrs on them, which at the time were $17,000 each new, he paid $14,000 each secondhand. He also runs a comercial buisness meaning the outboards are a tax deduction. I just don't think people think things through to well, the comments of 4% of the market should tell people something.

[smallribber]

Some of the servicing cost I am seeing quoted are incredibly High but if you buy new you get caught by you must have it serviced by a dealer or your Guarantee is invalid. That is at least £5000 for the period of the guarantee minimum.


My little 60 hp Mariner Elepto and my Mercury 115 Elepto 2 strokes are about 19 years old and seem faultless. They may use a little more petrol but I can live with that.


Servicing cost on average per year is about £50 each tops and some of that is unnecessary . I do the servicing myself by the way.


Most of my Impellors for example do 3 - 5 years.



So for me old carbed 2 strokes all the way


Dennis

[Xk59D]

I gave a breakdown on my 5 year costs....not remotely close to 5 grand, that is fantasy land and if anyone is paying that much and doesn't have big triple engines you are being robbed.

[Pikey Dave]

5 year servicing on my DF140 will be around £1500 tops. It’s just a ball ache having to take it in every 12months instead of every 3 years. Dunno which planet £5k came from[emoji57]