Accident or not?

[codprawn]

Bound to cause controversy but here goes....

Most people on Ribnet commented on the tragic accident in Barmouth harbour where 2 men died laying moorings.

The inquest seemed pretty fair

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4327707.stm
"The court was told the two experienced lifeboatmen, from Barmouth, were out in a vessel unsuitable for the weather.
The coroner recorded a verdict of misadventure on both men"

Now it seems the family are to start civil proceedings against the harbour authority.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4355911.stm

Basically they are claiming they were expected to lay moorings when they shouldn't have so they are now suing their employers.

Why can't they see this was an accident? The 2 poor men were "experienced lifeboatmen" - surely they wouldn't have done anything they thought was too risky?

Suing people will NOT bring these men back.

Modern society needs to stop finding fault all the time - accidents can and will happen.

[King_C]

I think the main thing with all compensation cases is that they feel they can atleast help themselves and therefore make the best of the terrible situation....I figure they think suing the habour will atleast bring them sum easy money which altho will not compensate for the loss of a family member will make them feel a bit better!?

I havnt yet looked at the links you posted tho!

[codprawn]

One half of me thinks

"Good luck to them - they need all the money they can get to help them through this and to compensate for the loss of a breadwinner"

the other thinks

"It was an ACCIDENT - other people have lost loved ones and breadwinners for other reasons and yet they get nothing"

Don't get me wrong - if an employer does something wrong and deliberately puts people's lives at risk etc then they SHOULD come down on them like a ton of bricks.

I doubt for a minute that anyone FORCED those men out in those conditions. I am also certain that people who worked with them were also devastated by their loss.

I have lost almost everyone in my life I have ever cared about - money does NOT help - even 20 yrs on the hurt is still there!!!

[Scott2]

other way to think about it...

it could prevent similar thing happening again as barmouth harbour people. will think no its not wise for them to be out in this.

[codprawn]

Maybe I shouldn't have posted this but the current "blame" society saddens me and hurts us all.

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by Scott2

other way to think about it...

it could prevent similar thing happening again as barmouth harbour people. will think no its not wise for them to be out in this.

But he was the harbour MASTER.

I see you are in the RNLI - what would happen if people started to sue the RNLI when a crewman is lost?

[King_C]

Yeh i do think its far to easy for people to 'blame' others and get compensation these days....i once saw a tv add for compo where a guy explained how he was fitting a new fire alarm and they gave him the rong ladder? Surely if thats part of his Job description he should supply his own ladder or atleast know what type of ladder hes sposed 2be using?!

[Jklingel]

Sorry to hear about the lost boaters, out doing their job, or whatever. For that, it is a bad day, for sure. For the survivors... I thought the US was the only country that was sue-happy. It seems that is the first reaction by too many people over here, too. "Blame society" is a good term. Best to the survivors, but suing ain't gonna help Jack Diddley. j

[Nick Hearne]

Cod I have to agree with you on this one!
The more we sue over things like this, the more we will pay in insurance, the less freedom to do such things as say boating, diving, climbing, skiing the list goes on & on!

Nick

[Cookee]

Originally Posted by Scott2

other way to think about it...

it could prevent similar thing happening again as barmouth harbour people. will think no its not wise for them to be out in this.

Don't you think 2 dead people is enough of a lesson? The harbour authority paying compensation won't teach anyone feck all!

[Phil Chitty]

Originally Posted by codprawn

Maybe I shouldn't have posted this but the current "blame" society saddens me and hurts us all.

Just wanted to say Mr. Codprawn that I think you were very right to post this. The unfortunate blame and compensation culture that we live in these days does seem to be calming down a bit in the last 6 months (or I'm getting so used to it I don't notice all the cases!!)

Health and Safety legislation always puts the responsibility on both parties, not just the employer. Section 2 (1) of the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 states "It shall be the duty of every employer to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, the health, safety and welfare at work of all his employees. "

But , in the same legislation (Section 7) it states "It shall be the duty of every employee while at work to take reasonable care for the health and safety of himself and of other persons who may be affected by his acts or omissions at work"

There is always a balance in the legislation to ensure all involved are aware of their responsibilities.

It is generally said that all accidents are the fault of bad management but how far do you take this. Would you doubt the competance of the workers because they put themselves in a position of danger that untimately lead to their unfortunate deaths?

It is difficult to blame the dead for their mistakes (unless you are the MOD and buy helicopters with suspect foul weather abilities) but all the time we look for blame, fingers will be pointed.

Its a sad fact but companies like Claims Direct (out of business now thank god) have done a huge amount of harm to our general way of thinking after an accident and to our insurance premiums to ensure litigation costs are covered.

If there is genuine fault then questions must be answered to ensure these things don't happen again.

If not, let the dead rest in peace.

[pettal]

It's unfortunate that we have a blame society and I think we can thank the Americans (not all of them) for that as they tend to sue over everything and anything......hence their high insurance!

It's a shame when a terrible accident is brought down to money, but you can't really blame the families as has been posted previously the main bread winner has been taken out of the equation and if they have a big family then somehow I don't think the social security quite covers it!

I think I'm with most people on this, that whilst it is a shame that it has to go this far I accept that the monetary constraints of modern life do play a major part in peoples decisions to go for the money.

Whilst it doesn't bring anyone back, it does ease the worry of providing for your family as a single parent.

Sad, but an all increasing way of life.

[Nick Hearne]

Originally Posted by pettal

Whilst it doesn't bring anyone back, it does ease the worry of providing for your family as a single parent.

Sad, but an all increasing way of life.

Is this not why people take out life insurance?
I know that is why I pay for it!
Nick

[Scott2]

Originally Posted by codprawn

But he was the harbour MASTER.

I see you are in the RNLI - what would happen if people started to sue the RNLI when a crewman is lost?

cant. crew/parents if under 18 sign a form that say if anything happens the RNLI is not to be held responsible or to be sued.

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by Scott2

cant. crew/parents if under 18 sign a form that say if anything happens the RNLI is not to be held responsible or to be sued.

Maybe so but a good lawyer could STILL argue the case - contracts aren't as binding as people think!!!

I have to be honest I am really amazed that the majority of people here actually agree with me. Maybe other people should be brave enough to speak out as well when things like this happen.

It is NOT so much the fact that insurance premiums etc rise but the restrictions it puts on everyone doing what they enjoy.

Britain seems to have gone WORSE than the USA in that local councils etc try to stop things "in case they get sued" long before problems actually arise.

Stopping kids having snowball fights is one example - pushing over gravestones "in case they fall on people" is another!!!

Pendine sands being closed to motor vehicles after a "risk assessment" despite no problems and not only spoiling many people's enjoyment but also hurting the actual livelihoods of quite a few people - the list is endless and growing every day.

[pettal]

Originally Posted by Nick Hearne

Is this not why people take out life insurance?
I know that is why I pay for it!
Nick

I reckon 65% of adults only have life insurance to cover mortgage payments and most of those can't afford to take out seperate policies on their life. Iam open to being very incorrect and am basing that on people I know.

My life insurance is paid for by my company and I also get death in service benefit. However my mortgage insurance is paid by me and it ain't bl**dy cheap!

Hence why, whenever I go and do something stupid my misses has a smile on her face........if I go bye, bye she's a very wealthy and eligible 27yr old. (No you can't have her name and address!!)

But:

I think I'm reasonably well off but I can afford to pay the extra a month for separate life insurance. So imagine someone in the low income bracket who has four kids of school age, doesn't own their own property, wife has a part time job and both are trying to pay into pension plans because they want a life after they retire (as there will be nothing in the pot by then).

1.) What is the average wage in the UK these days?
2.) All the fathers on here will tell you 4 kids at school age ain't cheap.
3.) I'd imagine average rent isn't too bad in the UK for a house with 4 bedrooms??? (Guessing here)
4.) Part time wage is probably minimum wage.
5.) Late start pension plans are expensive and the way they are performing is diabolical......I could do better in a savings account!

So if hubby dies through an accident......house isn't guarenteed, pension lost for him (unless its a R.A.T.) and she probably can't keep up the payments on her pension, 4 kids to clothe and feed, bills to pay and no chance of a proper job for the wife as she's worked part time for a local shop all her life and has no skills to go back to work with.

God I'm making myself depressed!

You see my point though.......not everyone is as lucky as we are. So whilst I don't like the litigation thing......I find it hard to blame them for doing it.

[Nick Hearne]

Well from your description they would of been on a lot of state handouts to make ends meat! So again the sate will foot the bill!
And if they could not afford 4 kids why the b.hell did they have them!

Nick
PS can you post a photo of you wife!

Originally Posted by pettal

I reckon 65% of adults only have life insurance to cover mortgage payments and most of those can't afford to take out seperate policies on their life. Iam open to being very incorrect and am basing that on people I know.

My life insurance is paid for by my company and I also get death in service benefit. However my mortgage insurance is paid by me and it ain't bl**dy cheap!

Hence why, whenever I go and do something stupid my misses has a smile on her face........if I go bye, bye she's a very wealthy and eligible 27yr old. (No you can't have her name and address!!)

But:

I think I'm reasonably well off but I can afford to pay the extra a month for separate life insurance. So imagine someone in the low income bracket who has four kids of school age, doesn't own their own property, wife has a part time job and both are trying to pay into pension plans because they want a life after they retire (as there will be nothing in the pot by then).

1.) What is the average wage in the UK these days?
2.) All the fathers on here will tell you 4 kids at school age ain't cheap.
3.) I'd imagine average rent isn't too bad in the UK for a house with 4 bedrooms??? (Guessing here)
4.) Part time wage is probably minimum wage.
5.) Late start pension plans are expensive and the way they are performing is diabolical......I could do better in a savings account!

So if hubby dies through an accident......house isn't guarenteed, pension lost for him (unless its a R.A.T.) and she probably can't keep up the payments on her pension, 4 kids to clothe and feed, bills to pay and no chance of a proper job for the wife as she's worked part time for a local shop all her life and has no skills to go back to work with.

God I'm making myself depressed!

You see my point though.......not everyone is as lucky as we are. So whilst I don't like the litigation thing......I find it hard to blame them for doing it.

[tinker]

It may well be that you all do the honourable things in life and never put anyone at risk with business decisions or just ignorance.
Sadly facts show to us that not all people are of this moral high ground, there are people out there who make poor decisions, motivated by greed that cost lives. While accountability does not seem to extend to everyone, Mr Blair, it should and does to all us mere mortals.
Safer decisions are now been made and justified, on a financial basis, because the greedy people amongst us know that a poor decision could ultimately cost them money.This in my opinion justifies the right to sue, when negligence is shown.
On another note the case in question should not really be commented on with out all the specifics in question been avaliable. It may well cause offence to certain people and may well result in, legal action!

[pettal]

Originally Posted by Nick Hearne

Well from your description they would of been on a lot of state handouts to make ends meat! So again the sate will foot the bill!
And if they could not afford 4 kids why the b.hell did they have them!

Nick
PS can you post a photo of you wife!

I think you must have the munchies Nick.......meat and sate? You have the makings of some top nosh!!

I was actually playing devils advocate......I hate children with a passion (the little snot nosed monsters) and am of the opinion that those people who can't afford kids shouldn't have them. Unfortunately it's a fact of life that the poorest have to make their own entertainment.......that normally involves un-protected sex!

Personally I just get larger'd in the pub and go home stinking of beer, fags and curry.......stops my thoughts of sex in an instant!

I'd have to let the bint out of the dungeon before I can take a photo!!

[The Jackeens]

Originally Posted by codprawn

The 2 poor men were "experienced lifeboatmen" -

Commiserations to the bereaved. Sounds like they lost some decent people.

missus