advice needed on selling

surfer4life · 08 September 2013, 12:36

My boat is up for sale, and someone has just been to look at it and is asking for vat receipts and bill of sale, none of which was given to me when i bought it 18 months ago, as i'd never bought a boat before i didnt know i needed it.

do i actually need these things to sell my boat?

MustRib · 08 September 2013, 12:55

maybe just to prove ownership...
caveat emptor and all that.
I bought my last Rib and the vendor had no proof of ownership, receipt or bill from the guy he bought it off. Sometimes boats change hands a few times, and when they get a bit longer in the tooth the original paperwork disappears.
Remember if he asks for a receipt from you, if buying it, to include the phrase
"as seen and approved" on it.
Am sure some of the trade members on here will have some much better advice than I can give. One will be along shortly am sure.
Good luck.

Poly · 08 September 2013, 13:24

surfer4life,

You may find that with a well 'informed' buyer that those things help, but they are not absolutely essential. The more expensive the boat the more likely it is to be a concern. If the boat shows any signs of commercial use / coding then I would be keen to get the VAT issue verified. Otherwise, if I had no intent to take it out the UK then VAT would probably be less of a priority. If you want to take a boat to France etc even on holiday - then proving its VAT status is either very useful or essential depending on who you believe.

The RYA legal department should be able to provide further advice and 'template documents' if you are a member. If I was buying a high value asset without the required paperwork I would expect some "warranties" written into the bill of sale that indemnify me against you not being the legal owner, outstanding finance or VAT due.

surfer4life · 08 September 2013, 13:36

Thanks guys, he wants it as a tender for his bigger boat (mines an atomix 5m 2007) so i think he's used to this vat receipt and bill of sale as i imagine if he wants mine for a tender than his is worth big £££££'s.

mine only has 1 previous owner which was the guy who imported them back in 2007 and was his demo boat, i think he's worried that it might have outstanding finance on it and think he is used to this vat issue on his bigger boat.

I've searched on google for some sort of boat hpi check but it appears it can not be 100% accurate so pointless.

Nick Hearne · 08 September 2013, 15:34

I would say try going back to who you bought it from, if he had it as a demo boat he may not have paid the vat once he old it to you!

surfer4life · 08 September 2013, 18:28

Thanks nick,

Surely the vat would have been paid when he imported it and the fact I imagine it was sold at less than what he paid for it 6 years later then vat would be owed to him not due, if he was vat registered, or am I missing something ( I probably am )

PeterM · 08 September 2013, 19:14

Was the chap who sold it you called Nigel?

Nick Hearne · 08 September 2013, 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by surfer4life

Thanks nick,

Surely the vat would have been paid when he imported it and the fact I imagine it was sold at less than what he paid for it 6 years later then vat would be owed to him not due, if he was vat registered, or am I missing something ( I probably am )

If he was running a business then he may have claimed back any vat on it and had it down as a asset of the business he would then have to sell in including Vat to you! But may have just pocketed the money and not paid the vat!

Kernow Buoy · 08 September 2013, 19:32

I would imagine your prospective purchaser intends taking the boat abroad, apparently a VAT receipt can often be asked for.

thomas · 08 September 2013, 19:45

You might have to try and find another buyer, most people have no idea about VAT invoices and bills of sale for small craft, though anyone from big boats will insist.

Not sure what the size cut off for needing one for either - plus if you went to look ant a vintage Avon SR4 that's change hands hundreds of times and asked for an original invoice I doubt you'd get one.

Buying a yacht is like buying a house and mostly done though a broker, you get all sorts of documentation, builders certificates, invoices, etc and they are like your deeds. Small boats are entirely different, mostly private sales and few have all the paperwork.

Poly · 08 September 2013, 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by surfer4life

Thanks nick,

Surely the vat would have been paid when he imported it and the fact I imagine it was sold at less than what he paid for it 6 years later then vat would be owed to him not due, if he was vat registered, or am I missing something ( I probably am )

Ah vat on boats is not as straightforward as vat on everything else. I've no idea why.

Dry Run · 09 September 2013, 08:53

As a Broker of mostly smaller boats and Ribs, I would say the following: -

If you brought the boat to us and asked us to act as brokers, then without any supporting paperwork we would have to decline. The more paperwork you have the better the chance of selling and the better the price achieved.

Vat paid proof is going to be important to anyone wishing to export or use the boat abroad. The manufacturer of your boat may well be able to update you on the vat status and provide a copy of the original purchase invoice showing the vat (if paid).

An "MCA bill of sale" is useful but not vital if you have a purchase invoice and proof of vat payment.

We would also provide our clients with a legally binding contract covering such issues as outstanding finance, legal ownership, vat status, etc.

I'm not trying to sell the benefits of brokerage here, but you can probably see why some people think it's worth the 7.5% we normally charge to have all the paperwork properly "chased up" and legally executed?

I would try the manufacturer for the Vat issue and the previous owner if you don't have a purchase receipt. It shouldn't be impossible to get these things.

Good luck

Steve

surfer4life · 09 September 2013, 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterM

Was the chap who sold it you called Nigel?

i think it was yes, he lives about 20 miles away from me in dinas cross pembrokeshire, do you have his email address by any chance? (scratch that i have found his details)

Thanks for all the replies guys,

i'm gonna try and chase the guy i bought it off.

i was absolutely clueless about all this stuff when i bought mine, at least i'm more clued up for next time.

PeterM · 09 September 2013, 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by surfer4life

i think it was yes, he lives about 20 miles away from me in dinas cross pembrokeshire, do you have his email address by any chance? (scratch that i have found his details)

Ace - he had/ has two 'homes' I recall . Had long conversations about he Atomix boats when I saw them stacked up along with OBs at one of his business premises. Pretty sure We'd have a contact on record somewhere.

surfer4life · 09 September 2013, 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterM

Ace - he had/ has two 'homes' I recall . Had long conversations about he Atomix boats when I saw them stacked up along with OBs at one of his business premises. Pretty sure We'd have a contact on record somewhere.

Peter, thanks, i have managed to contact him now and have his email address and phone number. He is looking into it for me and said he should have the documentation i am looking for

lakelandterrier · 09 September 2013, 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Hearne

If he was running a business then he may have claimed back any vat on it and had it down as a asset of the business he would then have to sell in including Vat to you! But may have just pocketed the money and not paid the vat!

Wouldn't you have thought that HMRC should be aiming to get best value out of time / return expended.....like going after Amazon / Starbucks / large consultancies that don't pay £100m's in tax, not people selling 2nd hand boats from previous owner who MIGHT potentially have them as business assets and who MIGHTpossibly have been a bit dodgy on a few £100 of asset. I know where the effort & resource OUGHT to go.

Rant over, but misdirected resource of OUR money annoys me

Landlockedpirate · 09 September 2013, 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by lakelandterrier

Wouldn't you have thought that HMRC should be aiming to get best value out of time / return expended.....like going after Amazon / Starbucks / large consultancies that don't pay £100m's in tax, not people selling 2nd hand boats from previous owner who MIGHT potentially have them as business assets and who MIGHTpossibly have been a bit dodgy on a few £100 of asset. I know where the effort & resource OUGHT to go.

Rant over, but misdirected resource of OUR money annoys me

I think you are missing the point, the only time you are likely to be asked for proof of VAT (and the only time I have actually been asked for it) is when you take the boat abroad.

HMRC couldnt give a monkeys about a used boat, unless its a megayacht.