Advice on Taking Friends Out

[brucehawsker]

I do not hold a commercially endorsed PB3 nor is my boat coded. For example, we don't have a life raft and nor are we registered with the local harbour authorities.

However, from time to time I have mentioned a trip on RibNet and people I have not met before have come out with me on my boat, and kindly paid beer / petrol money.

So far, so good.

This year I have mentioned on "Streetlife", a local forum, that I am looking for boat buddies on a non commercial basis suggesting a contribution based on a proportional share of the fuel / oil used. I pay my proportional share depending on total number of souls on the boat. I continue to bear 100% of insurance, berthing, depreciation etc.

I have now taken out three 'strangers' whom I first met at the boatyard immediately before the trip in question. We had two great trips, including one trip around the Isle of Wight.

I have now had someone questioning on Streetlife whether I need commercial endorsement and coding. Also suggested I should talk to the MCA and my insurance. Latter were not worried at all. Have not wanted to stir up a hornets nest with MCA.

Can anyone give me advice? This is probably a grey area, but.....

Thank you so much.

[Iron Dials]

I'm on a different island so I'm not aware of the local regulations but a commercial operator would:

1) post an add on the internet
2) meet his passengers just before departure
3) agree the financial compensation for the agreed trip

Sounds very like your situation.

Regardless of good intentions and a reasonable approach to sharing the cost of a day on the water should anything unfortunate happen I suspect the commentary/liability would be based on the outline above.
I'm not sure it's fair to claim that you're taking "friends" out on the boat.

You could look at a boatshare if you want to get the costs down.

[treerat]

Sounds as if you're drifting into the commercial world to me.

If a few mates pass you a bit of cash for fuel so be it but adverts, not knowing the 'guests' and charging a set fee (% of known cost is a fee) sounds like you've drifted.

[Searider]

Hi Bruce,

Sounds like a commercial operation.

There are exceptions for "Members Clubs" to operate a vessel without being coded - but there are pretty strict definitions of these.

MGN280 refers which you can download from here: MCA CHARTER SURVEYS Hamble Southampton Swanwick Gosport Port Solent Lymington Poole Chichester : Saunders Morgan Harris Yacht Surveyors

Take a look at the definitions.

[jeffstevens763@g]

Your talking buddies out sharing costs non profit making no dIfferent than car sharing in my book I did the same fishing with my mates share costs on boat and car to tow it there slipway charges etc.

Cheers

[lakelandterrier]

If the people you're taking out are making a voluntary contribution for fuel and they are not paying towards the boat or your "salary". I don't see there's a problem, especially if you're going out with the same people as a group of friends. Might be a bit risky taking out unknown quantities though.

I've crewed for other ribnetters only physically meeting them of day of trip and have taken others out on same basis. Never a commercial venture so OK - unless I'm missing something.

[Last Tango]

Extract...


(Pleasure vessel” as defined in the Merchant Shipping (Small Commercial Vessels and Pilot Boats) Regulations 2004, means; (a)a vessel which - (i) is owned by an individual, and (ii)at the time it is being used (aa)is used only for the sport or pleasure of the owner or the immediate family or friends of the owner, and (bb)is on a free voyage or excursion; (b)a vessel which - (i) is owned by a body corporate, and (ii)at the time it is being used - (aa)is used only for the sport or pleasure of employees or officers of the body corporate, or their immediate family or friends, and (bb)is on a free voyage or excursion; (c)a vessel - (i) which is owned by or on behalf of the members of a members’ club, (ii)which, at the time it is being used, is used only for the sport or pleasure of a member of that club, his immediate family or his guest, and (iii)for the use of which no payment is made other than a payment into the funds of the members club which funds are applied for the general use of the members club. In this definition, “free voyage or excursion” means a voyage or excursion in respect of which - (a)subject to paragraphs (b) and (c), no money is paid, and no goods or services are provided, by any person; (b)the owner of the vessel engaged in the voyage or excursion may pay money, or provide goods and services, to any person; and (c)the owner of the vessel engaged in the voyage or excursion may only receive - (i) money for, or in connection with, the operation of the vessel or the carrying of any person in the vessel as a contribution to the direct expenses of the operation of the vessel incurred during the voyage or excursion, or (ii)goods and services which are used or provided on the vessel during the voyage or excursion.


So......it's a pleasure vessel and not subject to th restrictions defined by MGN280...

[ShinyShoe]

[quote The Merchant Shipping (Vessels in Commercial Use for Sport or Pleasure) Regulations 1998 ] 2(1)a.i.
(aa)in the case of a vessel wholly owned by an individual or individuals, used only for the sport or pleasure of the owner or the immediate family or friends of the owner; or [/quote]
The debate about what constitutes a friend often crops up in the Rag and Stick world where people find crew from things like Crew Finder.

There is a response (Update : Paying / contributing crew) to an MCA enquiry if a crew found through crew finder can be a friend and the MCA say they wouldn't consider it as such. Your situation sounds at least as dubious.

However they say the financial arrangement (a common arrangement in the yachting world) in the YBW letter doesn't appear to be commercial. So I suspect that may well be the crux of the argument, can you demonstrate it was not commercial. So - how do you decide how much is contributed. If its a "fixed" sum set before going out - do you fill up when you come back ashore and split any excess? Do you take anything for wear and tear?

How is the venture advertised? Do you say "I am going out on my boat on Day X to go round IoW, anyone who is interested in helping me with navigation for a share of fuel costs please contact" or do you say "I have a boat and am prepared to take people out for £50 contribution to fuel costs, contact me to suggest a date. No experience necessary as I will do all the work". One seems more legit than the other. Or at least one is more similar to the YBW post.

The MCA's view being that you can appoint crew (no requirement that they are paid in my understanding) to assist. The friends and family bit relates to the pleasure part rather than the crew part...

[Poly]

How happy do you feel about describing these "strangers" as friends? is the "price" fixed in advance? - If so what happens if someone doesn't show / an extra person (a partner)? And what happens if the weather on the day means you don't go as far so burn less fuel?

[brucehawsker]

First of all, thank you all for your help on this matter.

The mechanism of publicity seems key in these matters.

I am saying I am looking for boat buddies on an online local forum. I am going out on a trip on a particular date to a particular location and expect to leave around a particular time for a particular duration. I go on to say that this is non commercial and on a friendship basis. The mechanics are they contact me by text or phone, we have a chat, and if they seem sensible (typically 50s + given my age and the area!!!) we discuss clothing and check I have a suitable life jacket and top layer if needed. Up to five spare places since there are six motorcycle seats on the boat,On the day we meet at the boat. I do a safety briefing and check life jackets.

We check fuel used and look at the oil level. On return we repeat the observation and calculate the cost to me of consumables. We then divide that by the total number of souls on the boat (including me) and that is what I suggest as a contribution. Usually I don't pay for my single pint of beer if we stop en route.

So the amount they pay is variable depending on the route, duration, weather, and number of folks who turn up. But it is typically £20 or £30 per head. A trip may be four to six hours. This is WAY under the commercial rates which seem to be £15 an hour for a blast on larger boat with all the helming and crewing done by professionals,

Usually everyone has a go at helming. I have a centre mounted throttle for safety reasons and I always sit at the navigators seat next to the helm.

Does this clarify matters at all? I really don't want to do anything inadvisable, and if anyone can suggest specifics I need to make clear in writing to protect myself, or things I need to do to protect my boat buddies, then I am keen to implement them.

Thank you so much.

Bruce

[jeffstevens763@g]

Bruce
dont over think it its a bunch of lads on boys day out sharing costs dosn't matter how you approach them on a forum, phone, call round their house its the same thing your doing all the right stuff with clothing/PPE and a safety brief letting them on the helm is ok in the right conditions and your sat at the side of them.if they are happy and your happy go and enjoy yourselves.

cheers

[Poly]

Originally Posted by brucehawsker

The mechanism of publicity seems key in these matters.

the key factors are
1. are you charging more than the true fuel cost? NO.
2. are they actual friends? I'm not sure how you find the friends matters. Given the evolving nature of the internet I think that description is somewhat tenuous. A key difference though is it would be odd to phone a customer up a week/month/year after a commercial trip and suggest going for a pint; that wouldn't be an odd thing to do with a friend.

There are "boat buddy" schemes operating in the sailing world (look in the small ads at the back of PBO etc). I don't think anyone expects them to be coded.

This is WAY under the commercial rates which seem to be £15 an hour for a blast on larger boat with all the helming and crewing done by professionals,

I'm not sure that is relevant in any way. After all other than following an accident the only way anyone is likely to complain is a commercial operator who your are "undercutting".

if anyone can suggest specifics I need to make clear in writing to protect myself, or things I need to do to protect my boat buddies, then I am keen to implement them.

I think the more you formalise it with paperwork the less it looks like friends sharing a bit of boating.

[beamishken]

Surely you get buddies returning after a trip for another trip? I'd imagine once you've been out a few times you will find a bunch of buddies who would like to go out on a semi regular basis? Once that group is established then the buddies can then be classed as friends in the true sense as it's not a one off arrangement it maybe not the same group every time but I'd imagine you'd soon establish a group of people who you can call friends and either ring or email to see who fancies a trip out. In time you would probably find you rely less on adds and more on real friends who share your hobby

[jyasaki]

Semi-off-topic comment here: In the US, the rules are that, for a recreational skipper, the "gratuities" can't be a condition of boarding.

In other words, it's fine if I take out a couple of people, and they toss me a few hundred dollars as a thank you.

I can't say "Sure I'll take you out if you pay for gas" or "You can come if you bring lunch." Any requirement of compensation to board the boat constitutes commercial enterprise, and requires certification to match.

jky

[ShinyShoe]

Is gratuity the word used in law? Over here a gratuity would generally be a tip. And tips are generally entirely optional. By that I mean I might pay £30 to go for a buzz around the bay on someone's commercial rib, bit I may* decide they gave such good service I will tip them. Tips on the UK are generally less than the other side of the pond and also less frequent and certainly for things like this not expected.

So what I'm getting at is if a 'mate' took me out on his boat and I number him a fiver ( 😉 ) for fuel when we get ashore I wouldn't expect that to be classed as a gratuity if he spent £10 on fuel and just two of us were out. Whereas if he said it cost £5 for my share of the fuel but I gave him a tenner and said keep the change, I'd expect the extra £5 (could) be classed as a gratuity.

How does it work in the states for car sharing? If you pre agree to pay fuel costs does that make it a commercial car journey?

*Anyone who has met me also knows I'm tighter than a cross bred Scotsman and Yorkshireman... so perhaps may is too strong a word.

[paintman]

In the UK car sharing is likely to fall under the Public Passenger Vehicles Act 1981.Section 4 of the act says:
"(4) For the purposes of this section a journey made by a vehicle in the course of which one or more passengers are carried at separate fares shall not be treated as made in the course of a business of carrying passengers if—

(a)the fare or aggregate of the fares paid in respect of the journey does not exceed the amount of the running costs of the vehicle for the journey; and

(b)the arrangements for the payment of fares by the passenger or passengers so carried were made before the journey began;

and for the purposes of paragraph (a) above the running costs of a vehicle for a journey shall be taken to include an appropriate amount in respect of depreciation and general wear."
Public Passenger Vehicles Act 1981