Another itch to scratch

[two stroke mick]

wilk

I was thinking the same my self. it would certinally reduce the costs. there would also be more flexability with the time keeping

[Barrowboy]

Originally Posted by willk

A bl@@dy fortune.

I think that there is great potential for a group of ribbers with say, three or four boats to do a RI with a support team - basically a 4x4 and a trailer. More fun, cheaper, less fuss...

Excellent idea! WiLifISh's riBNobbrs with the man 'imself as Team Manager, mentor, 'uncle', etc....

[MustRib]

Originally Posted by willk

A bl@@dy fortune.

I think that there is great potential for a group of ribbers with say, three or four boats to do a RI with a support team - basically a 4x4 and a trailer. More fun, cheaper, less fuss...

When I want to scare myself I will add up what it cost.
Otherwise I am in denial.
By far the biggest cost was fuel...
The fuel bills were large - but then again it seems I was also sharing some of my fuel with the Irish Sea via the bilge.
I also went through the 2 stroke oil at quite a rate as well....a not inconsiderable amount when added up.
I didnt sleep in the front of the boat, or have a motorhome, so spent on average 60 - 80 euros a night on accomodation. Plus add in 30 euros a day to feed myself.
Then the cost of trailering the boat to Milford Haven from Newcastle, the travel/ferry costs to retrieve the trailer from Wales, ferry and drive to Dingle, pick up the boat and then get it back to Newcastle.

WillK is right in what he says - say four Ribs together with one land support and one trailer, (hoping that no more than one in four retires), would have been good. Thinking it through...on an organisational level, and assuming the next "challenge" is going to be well subscribed, it would be great to have entrant liason peeps. Maybe one for the sub 5m boats and one of the plus 5m boats, each equipped with a 4 x 4 (supplied by a sponsor ) and a suitable trailer, that followed the circus round.
Each could carry some suitable chandlery bits for entrants to buy when needed (on a sale or return basis maybe from one of the big chandlers) plus oil etc etc ..the stuff that is often frantically asked for at the quayside!
I also see their role as including getting an update on available local accom from the local tourist info office, and being the conduit for Challenge information for their boats.

[willk]

Originally Posted by MustRib

WillK is right in what he says - say four Ribs together with one land support and one trailer

Ah yes, but I was thinking just the four RIBs - no flockin' swans in tow, literally or metaphorically.

[gtb]

Originally Posted by MustRib

WillK is right in what he says - say four Ribs together with one land support and one trailer

Providing land support is something that appeals to me, though I expect the best candidate for that type of role would be a marine engineer or the likes ... and that's not where my skills lay.

[willk]

Originally Posted by gtb

Providing land support is something that appeals to me, though I expect the best candidate for that type of role would be a marine engineer or the likes ... and that's not where my skills lay.

TBH, a 4x4 with some spares for each boat and the means to carry fuel would have been a huge improvement on the RI2013 support structure - there wasn't one. The nice thing about the coast is that it generally has a marine engineer not to far away

I ended up doing a bit of "support" on the RI, simply because I had a vehicle available - that was the key element. I searched out a stainless welder who would work after hours for one team, recovered and hauled a boat for another, gave a couple of lifts, collected some electronics and so forth.

It's actually a full time job on a trip like that. I'd suggest sharing the role between the boats, so one person or two take a day off the RIBs and drive instead. It was surprisingly nice doing day off/day on as Ireland isn't the worst place to see from the land. Shore Support should maintain a picture of where the boats are (text is good for this) and be ready to move to an "close support role". Arriving early in the next port is good as accommodation, food and fuel can be recced. Spares would obviously be limited, but might include tube and GRP repair kits and a very good set of tools. Carrying oils and lubes for the Teams is useful, particularly if there is a 2 smoker on the trip. A roof rack would be useful to store empty fuel cans on.

Things I noticed were:
Teams worrying about where their 2 stroke oil was. Seriously
A lot of electrical issues - water in VHFs, shorted kit etc.
Injured team members (a day off the boat might have helped)
Bad fuel filters - caused by our high alcohol petrol - retired one team.
Boats needed to be trailered for 1. Retiring 2. Maintenance 3. Catching up
Teams needed lifts to accommodation/pub/hospital (we have some good pubs)

[ShinyShoe]

Originally Posted by willk

TBH, a 4x4 with some spares for each boat and the means to carry fuel would have been a huge improvement on the RI2013 support structure - there wasn't one.

Which explains why the wining team won... coz they had a Mazda...

It's actually a full time job on a trip like that. I'd suggest sharing the role between the boats, so one person or two take a day off the RIBs and drive instead. It was surprisingly nice doing day off/day on as Ireland isn't the worst place to see from the land.

Snag being you can't say you went right round by boat. But I do agree. If I was planning it I'd have had some rest days in the plan too, ideally at places where there was good access to marine engineering etc.

Shore Support should maintain a picture of where the boats are (text is good for this) and be ready to move to an "close support role".

With modern tech this should be easier and easier. AIS was interesting from afar - although only 3 RIBs had it. With a tablet, 3G and possibly the ability for the support vehicle to receive its own AIS it might have been even better.

Ignoring the legalities, I assume you could use DSC possition polling to do the same thing as well. So Support moves along shore to some ideally pre-determined vantage points (I'm sure locals could make suggestions on here ahead of time) and is able to track the fleet.

Add to all of that the ability to use an iphone/android phone to update pos to marine tracking directly and you can probably get a half decent picture of whats happening.

Arriving early in the next port is good as accommodation, food and fuel can be recced.

If there was the need to please sponsors then the support vehicle can be blogging, and maybe even it could have a SIB in it and get out to meet some boats on the way out to take some snaps and get them posted online for media stuff.

Carrying oils and lubes for the Teams is useful, particularly if there is a 2 smoker on the trip.

Thought you'd gone on a different tack there for a minute!!

A lot of electrical issues - water in VHFs, shorted kit etc.

Should make sure the 4x4 has some means to dry kit then, and carry plenty of waterproofing stuff.

Bad fuel filters - caused by our high alcohol petrol - retired one team.

You been mixing up the beer pump and fuel pumps?

Boats needed to be trailered for 1. Retiring 2. Maintenance 3. cheeting in the race

FTFY!

You missed that the support team needs to arive early to get their towels on the sun loungers on the beach/beside the pool before they all get taken...

[Poly]

Surely thats the value of going with the professional event organiser - yes it costs you a hefty chunk of cash but in return they are providing a service?

Personally I'd prefer to explore the Irish Coast at my speed (or with a few friends) rather than having to race round to the organiser's itinerary. Fuel was a major complication, but a less high profile smaller group would have been able to use Jerries. Obviously there is a camaradarie effect of going in a large group but it it sounded like the pace meant people were too battered to benefit from it!

[ShinyShoe]

Originally Posted by Poly

Surely thats the value of going with the professional event organiser - yes it costs you a hefty chunk of cash but in return they are providing a service?

Yip, but when the event organisers are part of the event race they can't do much supporting... ;-)

[willk]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

Yip, but when the event organisers are part of the event race they can't do much supporting... ;-)

Tricky to lead from the rear

[willk]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

With modern tech this should be easier and easier. AIS was interesting from afar - although only 3 RIBs had it. With a tablet, 3G and possibly the ability for the support vehicle to receive its own AIS it might have been even better.

Ignoring the legalities, I assume you could use DSC possition polling to do the same thing as well. So Support moves along shore to some ideally pre-determined vantage points (I'm sure locals could make suggestions on here ahead of time) and is able to track the fleet.

Like a lot of "furringers" you have some illusions about the west of Ireland that need to be dispelled.

"Internet AIS" coverage is patchy there because it is initially uploaded by amateurs. They have both good and bad locations and so there are gaps and shadows in their reception. Kit may be down for days. Their broadband may be off. The west of Ireland is poorly served in this respect.

The entire western half of the country has a basic main road network, most of which avoids the coast. Trying to "meet the fleet" at a headland is not a thing that would work on a daily basis.

3G - that's a good one!

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by Poly

Personally I'd prefer to explore the Irish Coast at my speed (or with a few friends) rather than having to race round to the organiser's itinerary.

I agree (quick mark it on the calendar) Boating for us is all about enjoying the view & exploring new places. Personally I don't particularly want to beat the crap out of meself & the boat just to get somewhere before someone else does. But that's just me, each to their own

[ShinyShoe]

Originally Posted by willk

"Internet AIS" coverage is patchy there because it is initially uploaded by amateurs. They have both good and bad locations and so there are gaps and shadows in their reception. Kit may be down for days. Their broadband may be off. The west of Ireland is poorly served in this respect.

Oh I know all the pitfalls of Internet AIS, hence why I suggested the support vehicle might want to be able to fill the gaps...

The entire western half of the country has a basic main road network, most of which avoids the coast.

I have driven parts of it. I'd agree its not the most sophisticated road network, and perhaps doing it with a 7m RIB trailer (even empty) on the back might make it even more challenging. There are good parts of it that the road network does cover the coast though. Although doing headlands might mean 30mile journey up a dead end...

Trying to "meet the fleet" at a headland is not a thing that would work on a daily basis.

?? Better to get the RIBs to use a smartphone to send the possition data in then... You ideally want something that doesn't require active work from the RIB crew as they will loose track of time and then coz alarm when they haven't checked in... ...might end up getting towed by a lifeboat when you didn't really need to be...

3G - that's a good one!

Haven't been for a while. Maybe I assumed it'd have improved since I was there... Vodafone reports coverage in most of the west for phone and not that bad for 3G. O2 looks like its a joke... but maybe its vodafone thats taking the micky!

Now had I said 4G that'd have been a joke!!! ;-)

The actual data requirement would be low its only a few characters for an MMSI, a time & date and a Long Lat, so could work with 9600kbps or even 4800 on a basic mobile voice link. You'd just need some means to map it all... If you can make the mapping part available offline you can survice without G. Simillar issue for DSC pos polling... ...just plot it on a standard bit of plotting software rather than using google maps. There is an API available on marinetraffic.com that would let you just get the positional data... provided marinetraffic had it.

[gtb]

You'd be altogether better off with a Yellowbrick type system arranged for all participants by the organizer.

[ShinyShoe]

Well I like the concept but:

The LinleySwann RI boat had one - he was offline more often than he was on. Which considering its a self contained unit makes no sense (unless he wanted to be off for some reason . I think he had charging issues.

I think Willk was "proposing" this as a smaller scale venture. 1 4x4, 4 boats so no organiser to speak of. While that means you might only need 4 yellow bricks, that means you still have to find money for 4 yellow bricks which is even less likely to come from sponsorship. Not sure what they cost to hire for a couple of weeks. The operating cost for an owned unit is £8/month, £0.10 per pos report for the number you might want. Assuming you are afloat for 80 hours (8 hours a day, 10days) and send a report every 15 mins, you'd need £32 of credit. So its costing you £40 for the data plus your share of the unit... No idea what that'd be but doubt it'll be cheap. I'd expect the total cost to be c. £100. But it doesn't actually help you navigate on the water. It has some overlap with a PLB but isn't as certain to get you help. Your shore support still needs to be able to connect to the t'internet to know whats happening. If its your distress beacon you need it in your pocket which may reduce signal quality but means its also not constantly charging. And the yellow brick will then send the 'alert' message by SMS. If thats to the support vehicle then thats not reliable. Sometimes SMSs just never arrive for soem reason. More likely its delayed because your signal is weak.

If you don't want it as a means to navigate on the water or distress only to let people follow the action then I'd say the marinetracking iAIS ap would do the trick for you provided the at sea coverage of 2G was good enough... If all4 boats were using it and go round a corner and stop sending data then its probably a safe bet they all lost signal... or hit a ship!

[willk]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

I think Willk was "proposing" this as a smaller scale venture. 1 4x4, 4 boats so no organiser to speak of.

"proposing" in inverted commas is spot on

As regards the support vehicle needing to keep an eye on the "fleet", I was more thinking about it being in the right place at the right time, not tracking every boat every minute. The boats should be able to look after themselves, but by texting base at certain check points they could let the vehicle know how the day was going. Some of those days are long!

I'd have thought that a PLB on each boat and maybe an AIS transponder somewhere in the fleet would suffice.

A Note: The comms in the RI were brutal. I can't overstate the importance of a good VHF setup. Some boats had very poor comms - bad antennae, broken antennae, water in sets, water in mics, blown fuses. I'd be optimising any kit I had before a venture like that.