Awful broker! - are there really RYA and BMF rules of sale?

[HUMBER P4VWL]

Thanks Dry Run, your process is what I'd expect.

He seems to have mixed it up for his own gains.

His version. Agree a price if the boat were good runner. Pay 10% to him. Then he organises engine test and refunds you if anything wrong. As if!

I said, I or an independent test engine, computer readout and compression test, then sea trial, then if happy I pay deposit.

(Though I do accept deposit before sea trial to stop joyriding.)

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by HUMBER P4VWL

.

(Though I do accept deposit before sea trial to stop joyriding.)

But then again, if you were buying a car, the salesman would be falling over himself to get you out for a test drive, why should boats be any different? Tyre kickers & timewasters are an occupational hazard of any salesman. I spend hours preparing quotes for jobs I never get, such is life

[PeterM]

Seems very odd to want money before a seatrial . I've never bought a brokered boat - but no way would I hand anything over or sign a thing unless I'd had try out. Have to besensible and realise burning 50l of petrol is not on , but to me its part of the normal process.

[Searider]

The difficulty for the broker is that the boat (and the fuel in it's tank) isn't his to give away on test runs.

As Dry Run has said the sea trial is to show that the boat works and performs as it should - not just for the purchaser to decide if he likes it.

The analogy with used cars is different. Most dealers own their stock. However, not sure how easy it is to get a test drive these days.

BMF, RYA and ABYA all have standard contracts that can be used - but they can be varied to suit the situation.

As I type this I'm surveying a boat. Met purchaser and broker this morning. Purchaser signed contract this morning and is now at the bank transferring 10% to the broker - this has to be before they will let me scrape patches off the underside as part of my inspection. Sea trial tomorrow.

That's how it works with brokerage.

[Ribochet]

Originally Posted by HUMBER P4VWL

His version. Agree a price if the boat were good runner. Pay 10% to him. Then he organises engine test and refunds you if anything wrong. As if!

Just for information this is a copy of the British Marine Federation Template for the agreement for sale and purchase of a second hand vessel subject to Survey and Sea trial


BMF CONDITIONAL SALE AGREEMENT.pdf

[chewy]

Is it this one:

Humber Destroyer 5.5m RIB

Apologies if it isn't?

[PeterM]

Originally Posted by Ribochet

Just for information this is a copy of the British Marine Federation Template for the agreement for sale and purchase of a second hand vessel subject to Survey and Sea trial


Attachment 69006

Hmm- very interesting & all legal , but I feel very restrcitive and why I'd never buy a boat on brokerage.

Seems heavily in favour of the seller/ broker rather than the poor buggers spending the money !

[SPR]

Originally Posted by PeterM

Hmm- very interesting & all legal , but I feel very restrcitive and why I'd never buy a boat on brokerage.

Seems heavily in favour of the seller/ broker rather than the poor buggers spending the money !

would you expect anything else? have you read standard t & c 's of any of your suppliers? you find these interesting too!

[thomas]

I had someone test sail our Bavaria 32, it was like a new boat, without paying a deposit - then Opal Marine, the broker, sold them a new boat instead - the guy who bought it in the end told me that when he handed over the deposit the broker was still trying to persuade him to buy a new boat. Moral of the story - Never use a broker who sells a new boats! What really hacked me off is we had bought our Targa through Peters in the same office.

[Dhf]

Brokers don't like giving owner contact details out because they don't really want you bothering their clients, and the clients probably don't want bothering, which is why there using a broker in the first place. However there's no rules stating you can't contact the owner, which is what I done when I purchased with a broker. after a bit of research I found the guys number and ten minutes later I'd already talked him down a grand, with a free trail and aggrement to fix any storage probs. the broker got his commision, just not as much as he hoped for. so yea deffo worth contacting the owner if you can.

[captnjack]

Originally Posted by PeterM

Hmm- very interesting & all legal , but I feel very restrcitive and why I'd never buy a boat on brokerage.

Seems heavily in favour of the seller/ broker rather than the poor buggers spending the money !

Really? The language in there is essentially the same as you find here in the States and its heavily weighted in the buyer's favor IMO. The 10% deposit is essentially a joke as you can claim the vessel is unsuited for your purposes at any time and walk away with your deposit. No you can't tear someone else's boat apart in the interest of surveying it. Or take it joy riding multiple times or in rough weather. Those seem like the only protections granted the seller and they seem reasonable to me. As much as we'd like to sea trial RIBs in rough conditions, its not viewed favorably when you damage a boat you're hoping to buy...

[Aturnerjones]

If a dealer is selling what they are advertising and this is accurate then it would normal to the buyer hear the engine and even have a test on the water. If you are not allowed this then walk away.. I hear so many stories of people spending a lot of money blindly on boats..

[PeterM]

Originally Posted by captnjack

Really? The language in there is essentially the same as you find here in the States and its heavily weighted in the buyer's favor IMO. The 10% deposit is essentially a joke as you can claim the vessel is unsuited for your purposes at any time and walk away with your deposit. No you can't tear someone else's boat apart in the interest of surveying it. Or take it joy riding multiple times or in rough weather. Those seem like the only protections granted the seller and they seem reasonable to me. As much as we'd like to sea trial RIBs in rough conditions, its not viewed favorably when you damage a boat you're hoping to buy...

Guess I just find a shame that business is rarely done on a handshake and gentlemens agreement nowadays and that such a coverall document needs to be used. I can only imagine that while there are lots of 'good' brokerage sales about - any that go wrong could be a pain to get the 10% back etc.

I suppose it is a reflection of the fact people will take advantage and lie etc, but if I ever sold anything that even unknowingly turned out to be 'duff' I still think I'd give a refund even if legally it was 'buyer beware/ sold as seen' and I had no legal obligation.

[captnjack]

The 10% is obligated to be retained in a seperate escrow account. Just point to the contract at any time and say "sorry the boat no longer suits my needs, give me my deposit back". Unless you are dealing with a thief of a broker they are obligated to return it to you. Its not like shaking hands with a thief would give you more protection than this very standard brokerage contract which gives generous benefits to the buyer.

[HUMBER P4VWL]

Whatever the rules.

If a seller/broker won't let me get an independent test of an engine, that I arrange. Why on earth should I hand over any money?

I don't need a 45 min sea trial, I don't want to scrape paint off a hull. I want to do a compression test and plug in to the optimax computer myself, not let his engineer!

(Though there's cover up stippled paint on the trailing edge of the hull where it meets the transom in this particular case. Make your own conclusions, I have mine)

Oh and when I arrange 2 days prior to visit from 100 mile away and text the night before to come, tell me if you have never had, and still don't have the bleeding keys!!

And don't tell me that no second hand boats have service history unless worth over £30k.

[captnjack]

The part about using their mechanic is very odd.

The only reason I can see for that is they know the engine is dodgy. And thus they want their mechanic to put a good "spin" on any fault codes returned. A reputable broker would disclose any questions about the engine beforehand.

[GJ0KYZ]

Originally Posted by Searider

As Dry Run has said the sea trial is to show that the boat works and performs as it should - not just for the purchaser to decide if he likes it.

Not too sure I see it that way. If I take a boat for a sea trial it's as much about whether I like the boat as whether everything is working. Most of that can be done on dry land and, lets face it, ribs aren't yachts; they're not that complicated. I took a rib out with a Jersey broker some years back (South Pier Marine). The boat was fine; I just didn't like the way it sailed that's all. The broker was ok about it and no money changed hands or was retained. I just don't think in today's economic climate that brokers can be too pushy with customers.

[Bigmuz7]

Originally Posted by GJ0KYZ

Not too sure I see it that way. If I take a boat for a sea trial it's as much about whether I like the boat as whether everything is working. Most of that can be done on dry land and, lets face it, ribs aren't yachts; they're not that complicated. I took a rib out with a Jersey broker some years back (South Pier Marine). The boat was fine; I just didn't like the way it sailed that's all. The broker was ok about it and no money changed hands or was retained. I just don't think in today's economic climate that brokers can be too pushy with customers.

I agree, I wouldn't want to pay money for a good hull and engine only for it to handle like a rice pudding

Ive owned most of my ribs from new and improved all of them as the original rigging wasnt quite correct, or could be done better .. others arent so fussy, and just like to boat to go, but I'd want to know mine handles properly.

Originally Posted by tony t

I have promised him the protection of the BS gang but he declined

'kin ell,..... look out world .. dads army spring in to action ... dont tell 'em your name tony



he comes home each evening and he's ready with his dry suit

[Chris Caton]

Originally Posted by Bigmuz7

'kin ell,..... look out world .. dads army spring in to action ... dont tell 'em your name tony


he comes home each evening and he's ready with his dry suit

excellent

[kerny]

Originally Posted by Chris Caton

excellent

Seconded