Bodge up coming up - will it work though?

[ian parkes]

I like the 2 patch idea .
My boat has wear patches fitted from new in that area .

Steven I wondered, after seeing a pic of your boat on a trailer when you first got it, had it sat in some contaminated water / oil or petrol etc , that could have rotted the fabric .

As for superglue its not water proof so don't use it if the boat is kept moored , surely sikaflex is the better bet ?

[Poly]

Originally Posted by BogMonster

my new double jockey seat arrived from Humber today (very nicely made and finished too, I have to say)

Stephen, make sure you send Humber a nice thank you letter for the Jockey seat - beginning with the opening line "without prejudice".

[BogMonster]

Originally Posted by Polwart

Stephen, make sure you send Humber a nice thank you letter for the Jockey seat - beginning with the opening line "without prejudice".

Have to say the build quality of the jockey seat is very good and sensibly designed, nice sturdy grab handle on the back rail and a securely fitted side-hinged seat so you can't lose the seat when nobody is sitting in it! Not cheap, but then none of them were. But on balance I would rather have good tubes and a sh** jockey seat

[BogMonster]

First patch on and no Superglue Gel to be found anywhere so it looks like being Sikaflex. I guess I should scuff up the surface with sandpaper before putting a bead on, same as using the normal glue?

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by BogMonster

First patch on and no Superglue Gel to be found anywhere so it looks like being Sikaflex. I guess I should scuff up the surface with sandpaper before putting a bead on, same as using the normal glue?

think so, top tip from Rogue Wave, use a wet finger to smooth out the sikaflex.

Pete

[jwalker]

Originally Posted by Pete7

think so, top tip from Rogue Wave, use a wet finger to smooth out the sikaflex.

Pete

Spit works better than plain water.

Stephen, why don't you feather out the edge of the patch by sanding it away from the bottom right through to the orange hypalon. It will give you a similar effect to a patch on a car inner tube. It'll save you buggering about with glue fillets and sikaflex.

[BogMonster]

Originally Posted by jwalker

Stephen, why don't you feather out the edge of the patch by sanding it away from the bottom right through to the orange hypalon. It will give you a similar effect to a patch on a car inner tube. It'll save you buggering about with glue fillets and sikaflex.

Good idea, I'll try that on the patch and see what happens, ta

If I F it up I'll go back to the Sikaflex

First patch seems to have stuck to the exposed fabric so will leave it till at least tomorrow evening (tin says 48hrs cure time) and see what happens when I pump it up, I think the second patch would be easier to put on with the tube inflated. Spent the rest of the day realising just how much hassle it is disconnecting EVERYTHING from the console to re-route through a new double jockey seat so it doesn't get stomped on, and wondering how you fit a 2 inch plug through a 1 inch hole that is so deep inside the console you can barely see it, or how the hell you are supposed to get both arms in to above the elbow through a 6x6" hatch in the front of the console to disconnect the steering cable......

Oh boats are SUCH fun

[BogMonster]

Now bodged

Haven't done the Sikaflex yet (will wait till the glue has cured for a couple of days) but it didn't go all that well trying to make a 2 dimensional sheet of non flexible fabric form a shape in 3 dimensions doesn't work.... so I have ended up with a few ripples in the outer patch on the trailing edge where it curves around the cone end (I deliberately stuck the leading edge down first and worked back to try and get the best bond on the leading edge)

Oh well, nothing to lose, will just have to wait and see what happens..... the fact this didn't go too well hasn't filled me with confidence for changing tube ends though

[Biggles]

Stephen,

I don't want to pour water on your fire and I don't have a lot of experience of repairing tubes but I have some.

I must admit as good as that repair looks I've a feeling that as it is, it will fail on your first trip.

I feel this because I've seen repairs that look like that fail. The main trouble you have is that the conditions you are working in are less than perfect. You really need to do it in warm and dry conditions. Have you done that ? Then you need to make sure that the water at speed isn't going to lift that patch up. I've a feeling your patch will get lifted on its first trip.

Hopefully Paul Tilley can give you enough pointers to get you sorted, more than I can, but at the moment I think you've done well to get it looking like a RIB but you've got a long way to go yet.

Regards Nick R.

[BogMonster]

Nick, I have much the same feeling and already am beginning to wish I'd took seasonal advantage and turned the whole damned thing into a bonfire tonight.

Warm and dry - only as in working outside on a sunny day in ambient of about +12*C today I guess, maybe a little warmer. Didn't look at the thermometer but must have been about that. It's the best I can do.

I don't have access to anywhere indoors and heated that is big enough to take the boat, the only places I might be able to use are damp and unheated which would be worse than working outside, so its a case of choosing the best day. Bear in mind the previous patch did work OK, it just wasn't glued to anything worth gluing a patch to but it didn't fail due to a bonding problem because the tube went with it!

The leading edge of the seam looks much better because it is that side I was concentrating on getting right, the trailing edge looks crap because you can't flex something that will only flex through 2 dimensions, through 3 dimensions. That, I assume, is why the cone shape is formed out of 3 bits of fabric instead of one, but a patch made of 3 bits of fabric wasn't going to get me anywhere. I thought that might happen before I started.

I still hate inflatable boats and if it goes wrong the first time out I imagine I'll be saving the cost of cone ends and selling it as-is for whatever money I can get because at that point I will finally be at the end of my tether. There are other ways to have fun that are less hassle, I could run a small aeroplane for less than £300 an hour (the approx cost of buying and rigging up this stupid thing divided by the number of hours use I have had out of it, not including fuel) and I know which I'd rather have! Though I will probably go back to Land Rovers and bikes, the difference will be that I'll no longer look enviously at boats on the water on a fine day and think "lucky bugger, wish I had one of those".......................................still I haven't made an expensive mistake for quite a number of years now so I suppose its overdue!

The plus side is I'm sooo glad I didn't waste three times as much on buying a new one, because then I'd be off to shoot myself!

[BogMonster]

Quick question on the Sikaflex application for the leading edge.... probably going to do that tonight.

The tube in front of the leading edge has some of the glue on it from the first layer I applied, because I deliberately made the glue bigger than the patch in case I didn't get the patch on exactly straight!

Would it be better to sand this off and apply the Sikaflex to the bare hypalon, or apply it to the glue, which presumably will be well stuck on to the tube?

[Biggles]

Stephen,

I would have thought cleaning off the old glue. It must be contaminated now with general grott and I don't suppose it will give a good surface to glue to as its now cured.

[BogMonster]

Originally Posted by Biggles

Stephen,

I would have thought cleaning off the old glue. It must be contaminated now with general grott and I don't suppose it will give a good surface to glue to as its now cured.

It only went on, on Sunday, so should be clean, but I think I'll give it a scrub up with some sandpaper anyway to provide a key.

Thanks

Fingers crossed for the weekend..... and once I can pump it up hard I can measure both tubes (sods law indicates they will be different sizes...) and send the measurements off to Paul to get some new bits made up

[BogMonster]

Well that was a short-lived idea. About six or seven hours running since I did it, spread over 2 days, and the patch is starting to fail along the leading edge, the sikaflex "cover" over the leading edge has split (still stuck to the toob, just split where the edge of the patch is) and it has lifted the seam along about an inch.

Burn the beast, burn the orange Satan, burn burn burn burn burn

[BogMonster]

Fixed it ..... again

out last weekend - ok

out this weekend

see below

"A Mac

A Mac

My kingdom for a Mac...."

Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooh <deep breaths> I hate this boat

nothing wrong with the gluing - all the orange has come off the tube again, even with having the leading edge covered with sikaflex so as not to catch up in the water flow.... makes me wonder if its worth fixing it at all or if the new tube ends will just fall out when I stick them in

[alystra]

Originally Posted by BogMonster

Fixed it ..... again


nothing wrong with the gluing - all the orange has come off the tube again, even with having the leading edge covered with sikaflex so as not to catch up in the water flow.... makes me wonder if its worth fixing it at all or if the new tube ends will just fall out when I stick them in

Stephen,

Have you been following this thread : http://rib.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16962 ? Tubes on a Ribtec being re-covered. Near the end of the thread the method of fixing is described. It seems that the top layer of fabric was sanded off, the exposed material primed with thinned glue, then new material (patch) glued using two layers of glue.

Your problem obviously isn't the gluing, it's the outer layer of material. Get rid of that and your troubles could be over. Just a thought. As if you don't have enough to do.

I have more than passing interest in your problems. My Humber is year 2000, blue tubes. No signs of your problem yet, but they don't hold the air like they used to. Tony.

[BogMonster]

Originally Posted by alystra

Stephen,

Have you been following this thread : http://rib.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16962 ? Tubes on a Ribtec being re-covered. Near the end of the thread the method of fixing is described. It seems that the top layer of fabric was sanded off, the exposed material primed with thinned glue, then new material (patch) glued using two layers of glue.

Your problem obviously isn't the gluing, it's the outer layer of material. Get rid of that and your troubles could be over. Just a thought. As if you don't have enough to do.

I have more than passing interest in your problems. My Humber is year 2000, blue tubes. No signs of your problem yet, but they don't hold the air like they used to. Tony.

I hadn't - will read it later as it looks quite lengthy! Thanks, sounds interesting

The latest curiosity - I was investigating at lunchtime and the tube seems to be half full of water after Sunday despite the fact it hasn't gone down, its just dripping very slowly out from under the patch, really weird, can't see how so much got in there when the tube had pressure in it and the hole is evidently tiny. I thought she felt lopsided when we were coming home, as if there was water in the toob, but I stopped and the toob stayed hard so thought it must have been my imagination.

I guess I will have to peel the patches right off and drain it out because it isn't going to dry out enough to glue it otherwise... and it'll be a couple of weeks before the new bits get here, its a long weekend this weekend and I don't want to be ribless. Bang goes 2 more evenings this week what I wouldn't give to swap it for a lovely Mac right now!!! This is a bit like being married to a stunning woman who takes a hearty dump in your cornflakes every morning....

Have you got wear patches? If you have, you'll probably be fine but you need to keep an eye on the seam where the inside layer stops because that's where mine has gone. The other tube is going the same way but it hasn't broken through yet. But of course it isn't a design fault ho hum

[alystra]

Originally Posted by BogMonster

I hadn't - will read it later as it looks quite lengthy! Thanks, sounds interesting

The latest curiosity - I was investigating at lunchtime and the tube seems to be half full of water after Sunday despite the fact it hasn't gone down, its just dripping very slowly out from under the patch, really weird, can't see how so much got in there when the tube had pressure in it and the hole is evidently tiny. I thought she felt lopsided when we were coming home, as if there was water in the toob, but I stopped and the toob stayed hard so thought it must have been my imagination.

I guess I will have to peel the patches right off and drain it out because it isn't going to dry out enough to glue it otherwise... and it'll be a couple of weeks before the new bits get here, its a long weekend this weekend and I don't want to be ribless. Bang goes 2 more evenings this week what I wouldn't give to swap it for a lovely Mac right now!!! This is a bit like being married to a stunning woman who takes a hearty dump in your cornflakes every morning....

Have you got wear patches? If you have, you'll probably be fine but you need to keep an eye on the seam where the inside layer stops because that's where mine has gone. The other tube is going the same way but it hasn't broken through yet. But of course it isn't a design fault ho hum

No, no wear patches on mine, just had a quick look this morning and nothing obvious. Might not be a bad idea to fit some though. I'll be doing quite a lot of work on the boat in the spring (trying to fit a tent on it so I can overnight in 'comfort'). Might do it then.

I can't help thinking there's something strange going on with the fabric. Why is it delaminating? Could the water inside the tubes soak through the woven fabric and lift the outer skin? I've had six inflatables (mostly Avon Redcrests), still got two, one 35 years old and the other 15 yrs. Both have been outside and inflated for most of their lives. The hypalon is still perfect on both, though lots of fittings have dropped off over the years.

[BogMonster]

Originally Posted by alystra

No, no wear patches on mine, just had a quick look this morning and nothing obvious. Might not be a bad idea to fit some though. I'll be doing quite a lot of work on the boat in the spring (trying to fit a tent on it so I can overnight in 'comfort'). Might do it then.

I can't help thinking there's something strange going on with the fabric. Why is it delaminating? Could the water inside the tubes soak through the woven fabric and lift the outer skin? I've had six inflatables (mostly Avon Redcrests), still got two, one 35 years old and the other 15 yrs. Both have been outside and inflated for most of their lives. The hypalon is still perfect on both, though lots of fittings have dropped off over the years.

I really don't know what is going on. The inner neoprene layer is supposed to be airtight so I suppose its watertight as well. I put a container under the tube last night and this morning it had about a litre of water in it but the tube still has a lot more in it and is still rock hard in fact I let some air out in case the sun came out today.

The new tube ends were collected from Paul Tilley yesterday so I hope to get them either next Monday or more likely the one after. Fingers crossed that will solve the problem but the delamination does worry me a bit....

What you need to do to identify the weakness is look for a little "ridge" on the surface of the fabric where the hidden inner layer ends, because it is along this line that it will fail. You can see it quite clearly happening on the bottom of the starboard tube as well, but its almost impossible to get a clear photo of. If I were you I'd fit wear patches asap to give it some protection, more importantly the extra layer will stop a lot of the flexing which I am sure is what killed mine, the seam constantly flexing every time water hits it and then pop due to fatigue.

I think Avon quality is a cut above most of the others

[jyasaki]

Originally Posted by alystra

I can't help thinking there's something strange going on with the fabric. Why is it delaminating? Could the water inside the tubes soak through the woven fabric and lift the outer skin?

Shouldn't be the case. Hypalon material is a outer layer of hypalon, a woven fabric for strength, and an inner layer of neoprene for air keeping. If water from inside was getting to the weave, the tubes should not hold air.

I suspect that the water is entering through the leaks. You probably get a lot more pressure than you'd think while running (water getting between the patch and the tube, and being forced into the hole.)

Stephen; you might think about taping the inside of the joint when fitting the new tube ends; would make any subsequent delamination problems a little less dire. Maybe.

jky