Cabin RIB developments

[crazyhorse]

Thanks Mike for your imformation,

There are + and - with all decisions,The window debate is not an easy one as you know.

I have looked long and hard and I have taken note of recent developments IE Glass and Plasticks and strength adn indeed a sandwich of the two will sort out any strength issue.

First on the problem of glare,I am of the opinion that providing your instruments are placed in such a position far enough away from the verticle of your screen then this reflection at night, will not be to much of a problem.As far as heat in the summer goes this problem can be dealt with bye adequate ventilation.Strength of the screen and its housing is dealt with at design stage.A backward facing screen shows less to the weather and is more airodynamic than a forward trawler type screen and therfore a sea can roll over as opposed to hitting a upright front door.

The new MCA rib designed for offshore Coast guard duties and built bye Vosper with a unit cost of 250k+

www.hotribs.com/03articles/79-halmatic/Halmatic has indeed gone down this route.

Also see http://www.knrm.nl/vloot.html
who use rescue craft and are developed at a unit cost of 600k plus.

Both are desighned for offshore use.
I indeed owned my own 37ft yacht and I find it interesting that you also have ended up going down this ultimate cruising route and have ended up with a cruising rib.

As far as the RNLI are concerned there new offshore boat fsb2 also now has rear facing windows as apposed to the old arun
Type.

As far as drawings go I indeed only have CAD drawings and unfortunatley I cannot publish these yet but will speak to the designers /Builders after New yr and see weather they can muster something up.
I am going to the London boatshow and will have a set with me on the 2nd were I am going to show Manos the boat and if your there your very welcome to a peek.

Crazyhorse

[crazyhorse]

Manos,

I went from putting a diesel in an atlantic 21 with a canvas cover.to buying a hull only and fitting a cabin,to purchasing a 10mtr hull and fitting an aluminum wheelhouse,to buying a part compleate Rib hull and fitting a marine ply cabin myself.

Then I went to try and buy a 2nd hand Donn Shead hull and sorting that to contacting Mould makers and trying to fit somebodys rib cabin mould to my hull.

I then went down the route of trying to buy a hull only but nobody would give any guarantees on the hull,and now the rules are so stringent that unless you are in the buisness or have accsess to a fabrication plant it just isnt worth it.

Rib Developments may seem like just a hull and a tube on them,but they are all highley teck pieces of equipment and you could loose everthying.

In the end the cheapist and safest way is to pay the money as besides the hull and cabin ,costs for all your equipment is the same.

I can say here and now for most this route of self development and self build is a highley dangerous financialy disaster route in todays Marketplace with all the regulations for offshore craft.

Good luck if you want to re invent the wheel, but please be carfull as you could be the only collector of your dream boat.

crazyhorse

[crazyhorse]

Brian Thanks for your Reply,

The main thing here is that we all are happy with our boats,they will vary from a design point and we will all use them for different things and indeed at different times and coditions.

Im interested in the Yanmar problem with Bravo 3 legs.I was going down that route and discussed with them which leg would be best suited,there advice for my application which wasnt speed but longevity in a cruising roll was Bravo 2x as this is there commercial leg.

In there own words they hadnt had one back.

They informed me I may have a problem with torque as it has a single prop therfore I may need Trim Tabs and I would loose aprox 2 knts.

In the end I went for the Volvo Kad300/ Duo prop dpg leg as I felt happy with that decision.I prommise if my engine /Leg couses me problems I will most definatley tell you.

There are some interesting engine Developments in my opinion going on at present,Cummins/Mercruiser are bringing out a maybe 320/370hp leg and engine,electronic my sources tell me.

Yanmar will go electronic injectors,and will source a new leg supplier,

I looked at the Konrad Drive but with the all up weight and expence of a gearbox and losses at the meaty end It wasnt practical.

[Manos]

Thanks for the tips. I am aware about all these rules and regs. But bare in mind that since this is an X-Coastgurad patrol high speed hull (I assume that it has all the necessary papers of class and seaworthiness) I don't see that there is anything wrong in revamping it and using it as a cabin RIB.
It will cost me much less than buing a brand new or even second hand cabin RIB, this is a is 12 mtrs LOA and is made just for going on rugh weather at high speeds. With the added pontoons it will be the BUSINESS!!! I recon.
In Greece you can pass a boat through all the red tape and get it certified CE and cat B provided is checked by the Coastgurad relative body and is found to be built in accordance with these rulles and regs.
More or less the same as for a ship. However, the only difference being that the calssification society here is the Coastguard instead.
Therefore, since I intend to do everything right (which I think I can with the help of a naval architect and engineer friend of mine and my basic knowledge) I cannot see that there is a problem and I'll have a briliant seaworthy all weather boat that would have cost me something like £20,000 tops tops inc the engines (2xdielsel 250 bhp each with jets also will get 2nd hand from the auction).
Any way is all academic at present as will need to get the huill first. When tha's done will talk about the rest.


PS labour and parts in Greece are a LOOOOT cheaper than the UK so far LOLOL

[crazyhorse]

Hi Manos,

The reasons for not attempting that project are so numerouse that I dont know where to start,Therfore I aint going to.

Good luck me old mateee and I look forward to seeing you at the boatshow.

[TIM]

At the moment you can see from my profile that I have Hysucat (amazing boat) along with Gavin. I was hopeing to go the cabin rib route in about 12-18 months, Dose anyone have any experance of Redbays... from what I hear they are unbrakeable and the have a wraparound consoule with a soft top, instead of a full cabin.

Brian has confirmed what I thought about small cabined boats , that the cabin is pretty usless. thats why I like the Redbay, Cabin protection but, you can 'put the hood down' in the summer.

On this years 'RI Round Ireland' event, which I think Brain was on, The guys said that when the going got tough the Redbays got going... I would like to know more...

[Flanker]

Tim,

My son spends his school holidays driving the RIB's shown in the link below, they are 12mtr twin 240hp with marinised landcruiser engines, they are Redbays and the ones I think you were on about. If there is anything specific you want to know, just tell me.

http://www.puffin.org.uk/framehome3.html and click on the Rib diving section on the left side, the pictures of the RIB's are at the bottom of that page. BRILLIANT machines so he says.

Pete

[crazyhorse]

Well Tim,

The Redbay9.1 was my personal 2nd choice of new boat.

But it aint that easy and I will explain.
I did not want 2 diesels.

The reasons being.

1 - 2 X fuel bills.
2- 2 x maintanance bills.
3-Unshore what price diesel is going to be in the U.K next few yrs.
4-Unshore what is happening with emmisions standards in next few yrs?
5-Unshore about leg/drive capabilitiesof engines supplied with boat.
6-Engine tecknology is changing real fast for me and I wasnt prepared to be twice as vunerable financialy, if I ended up with old tecknology engines.
7-Wanted the performance and speed and range of a single powerful diesel.Eg A single Diesel rated at 275hp at the prop will equate to aproximatley two 165hp engines and legs withought the weight and give a larger long distance range.
8- Lost Room on the rib,you can give up 2mtrs off the back end,on a 9mtr boat and your back to a 7mtr boat.
9-I am not convinced of twin diesel applications for ribs in this smaller size and becouse of my happy cynickal attitude, I decided to buck the trend,and go for makeing the boat builder less proffit.
10-4 stroke tecknology is now with us and I Use an outboard to get us home at displacement speed 6knts.Its a Honda bf30 it gives a range with 15 gallons of aprox 100miles from a safe haven.

If I were buying a rib today of which I am not.

I would ask for a GZ curve and check with the RYA for guidence in reading it.

No boat can be sold in Europe with a cat B Offshore CE mark unless it passes Iso 12217 unless it passed before the stability test came into force.

I do not know weather the Redbay has this Ticket I presume it does, but please check.

In the Press at the moment there are a number of things to be carfull of.ie buying ex work boats and using them for leisure use. They may have to be re tested and if they fail your in Cat C inshore waters with your boat.

The people to watch out for in the future in boating, are the insurance companies as if you give them a reason for no pay out then that will happen.

As you can see I dont go with the flow and I hope you make the right choice for you,I personaly like the Redbay and think, If it has the right statistical GZ imformation and you can get your prefered choice of engine/s and its half as good as it looks,then you will not go to far wrong with that for an open boat.

I looked at increasing the front Cabin so as to stay overnight,but after My choice of engine and the changes I wanted to make and the costs, I decided to hang fire and get what I really wanted.Which was a Cabin rib with a wheelhouse.

Also in my opinion If a tube is glued on only, then it will come off at great speed,its all down to the tube and carrier and the fixing points of that tube to that carrier. you do not need to have a Hard nose on all offshore ribs.

This is what I have learnt so far and these are my personal opinions of course.

I hope there is something in what I say that will be of help to you both and maybe you will stick to your flying machine,it sounds like a great bit of fun your having with it..


Good luck

Crazyhorse

[Mike Garside]

This thread has so much in it that interests me that I'm going to post replies bit by bit. There are only so many hours in the day!

Originally posted by crazyhorse
There are + and - with all decisions,The window debate is not an easy one as you know.

Well, I have to say, you make a convicing case for the backward sloping windscreen. I looked at all your links and the Dutch boats really do look the business.

On the other hand, the Coastguard design shown on the Hotribs story did not excite me at all. £250K for a boat that looks like a box and that can only produce 25knots with two diesels is not for me at all. Besides, I myself, wouldn't touch Halmatic with a barge pole.

As far as glare is concerned, I'm not sure I'm with you on this point. Ventilation alone will not stop you feeling as if you're in a greenhouse on a sunny day. You need shade, believe me.

I see the coastguard boat has aircon and that may be one way to go. Nevertheless, I still feel that shade from the direct effect of sun overhead is necessary with or without cold air.

Forward slope or backward? Thanks to this discussion, I'll now keep more of an open mind on the subject until such time as I get to the moment when I start to design Magellan Alpha's replacement.

Unfortunately I'm not going to be in London for this year's Boat Show. Will have to wait until the RIBnet gathering to see your plans, if I may.

Cheers.

[crazyhorse]

Yep,

Your right on the Halmatic jobee,I am of the same opinion.It aint there money they spend so they use the old boys network,and thats what they end up with for 250k?Design costs proberbly triple.
The link was used to demonstraight that Backward facing windows were used in the design,and that there seems to be a move in that direction.
Jet Drive boats still arnt proven to me and there losses at the meaty end are to great due to weight and power losses.If you want to Cherry pick Tecknology in the Rib World then you will have no friends in the Rib trade e.g. you cant buy an Aluminum boat in this country withought a jet drive or you can Sir, but they will have there profit out the boat on other things.
Its like most things You can have my boat for x but it comes with not so good new engines or have my great engines but it comes with a not so good boat.In the Boat sales business everything is worked out for profit,unless you do what your Predecessor did and what I am doing, you will end up with a boat built for proffit,not built for a job.Very different animals the problem is they look the same at first in the marina.

I agree that forward/Back sun cover on a hot day is a problem,your idea of car bubble wrap may go a long way towardes sorting this out. The size/volume of the forward windows will be of significance with the Greenhouse effect.

On the Niad link there is a 12mtr Patrol Rib with Forward facing windows,so you can see what it could looks like.Withought spending a penny.

Your Idea about aircon is a thought and indeed when I find some sun if its needed I may go down that route.

See you soon

Crazyhorse

[Mike Garside]

Originally posted by TIM
Brian has confirmed what I thought about small cabined boats , that the cabin is pretty useless...

Whoooaa, hold on there, Tim. Brian will be the first to admit, I feel sure, that his view on cabins is a pretty personal thing. My view, also pretty personal, is that the cabin is pretty much essential.

I am attaching two pics and you will see how I've arranged mine.

In the forward cabin I have 2 pilot berths. These are rigged up with a mini block and tackle arrangement to the ceiling. On passage they are hauled up and make excellent storage space. Kit does not get chucked about the cabin and the floor is totally clear. If it gets wet, no sweat.

In harbour you lower the bunk and it makes an excellent, well ventilated sleeping berth.

In the main cabin I also have a long berth with a bridge on it. One of the two seats is mounted on the frame. This bunk is very comfortable when under way and the person not driving - usually me - can enjoy a cosy doze well wrapped in a sleeping bag. I can promise you that a run back over the Channel after a lunchtime bottle of wine passes very pleasantly as Mrs Garside gets us home.

If you are considering a cabin RIB do not ignore the space for berths. In my book they're a must.

[Mike Garside]

Originally posted by Mike Garside
In the main cabin I also have a long berth with a bridge on it. One of the two seats is mounted on the frame. This bunk is very comfortable when under way...

[crazyhorse]

I think,

What Brian was saying is that he personaly doesnt use his for sleeping in when in port
Nobody is suggesting that you can indeed sleep when a boat is under way in a front Cabin of any Power vessel, and I for one can say even in a big yacht it is difficult if not impossible in a bit of a swell.

The front Cabin on any cabin rib is a great place for a kip in port,but not at 20knts.

We have a double on the left with fold down table as you walk in through the Watertight door.On the right is cooker fridge sink.Then Open hatch in the middle for acsess to double berth on port side,and acsess to shower,toilet,sink starboard side.

Two Shock absorber seats one either side of front hatchway in wheelhouse.

Crazyhorse

[Brian]

Yes Tim,
I am not saying cabins are useless, just that I don't use mine like/as much as I thought I would do when I ordered it. The nature of my type of ribing difers from Mike's-that's all. I think Mike has a brilliant setup (not to mention his "understanding" with Di about the driving!!). Mike's done enough of the roughty-toughty stuff and would like to be "indoors". I haven't done enough and prefer to be out of doors. But as you can see, if the weather were to be atrocious, I would prefer to be on Mike's boat. If it were to be a totally scorchio day-then maybe he would prefer to spend a little time in my outdoors Executive Club Smoking Lounge (i.e. the 4-seater wraparound, extremely comfortable back bench seat) on my boat.
I guess if we all had 45 foot ribs we could have both-but we haven't.

[crazyhorse]

Well you can indeed do both in a cabin rib,as a 2nd steering position outside on the back of the wheelhouse,means you can sit in the sun and drive the boat or go below when its chilly.

Crazyhorse

[TIM]

Maybe my choice of words were a bit abrupt, I think that the Scorpion is a fine boat but the cabin is only of any real pratical use in port or flat sea. As you know we have great wet weather most of the year and in the scorpion, the cabin is in the wrong place, IMHO, that not to say I wouldnt like one !!!!

Mike, I think you rib is dam near perfect for what I eventualy want in a rib, The only draw back is that you will miss the sun on your face, on good days ( about 3 good ones a year). The Sleeping areas are good, and adjustable pipe cot bunks are great and comfartable. But only used in port. (also good storage)I find on any boat that sail/motor boat etc a pilot house bunk is the most used one on the boat....

No rib is perfect yet, ( maybe crazyhorse has the answer ) Mikes rib is great but, silghtly heavy with the large cabin. The Scoripion is open air, fast, but no rain protection, the Redbay has no sleeping area and limited storage.

So its down to personal choice, My opion is that Ribs are great fast crusing boats, and most ports are within 2-12 hours ( if you have the endurance for that long ) so you might as well go with a overnight bag and a credit card. Once you get there in comfert and saftey, and stay in a good bed and a meal, it leaves you in good form to do battle the next day.

PS I am not trying to insult anyones boat, Just adding MHO. Mabye when/if I have a cabin rib, I might be on better ground to talk.

[crazyhorse]

Just to be a little accurate on this,

A twin Diesel boat open boat will weigh aproximately the same as a single Diesel Wheelhouse rib.

I havnt got all the answers Mike but Im going to give them Open Cabin Hard nose Ribs a run for there money.It will be fun.

Give us a call when you finished that project of yours.

Good luck

[Manos]

I am reading this very interesting Thread and the various (usefull) points and views regarding cabins on RIBs.
However, what I think has missed is the question why a cabin is necessary on a RIB or why one would buy a RIB with a cabin (heavier, not so versatile as an open RIB, not very towable etc) instead of an open RIB.
As I see it the cabin on RIBs similar to the Scorpion (ie the wheel house outside and not that much room inside either, basic construction etc) is made purely to be use in the Med ie Spain, Portugal, SFrance, Italy, Greece, Australia, SAfrica etc where climate is mild with lost of sunshine. The RIB can be used for a long weekend or even a 7 day or more holiday excursion during the summer hot months where people (if they want to be prepared to sleep rough) can spend one/two or as many nights as they can stand on the boat (I've never seen anyone sleeping on a cabin RIB so far).
Similarly RIBs with enclosed wheel houses and larger and more confortable accomodation area like say the TITAN Boats, are made for the northern climates (ie UK, NFrance, NSpain, Holland, Poland, Canada etc) where the weather is harsh with lots of rain and cold summers. One can esily stay in the cabin and have his 'comfort' without too much of inconvenience.
All in all (I think) is what one wants the RIB for.
Where and for what this boat will be used for and for how long will it be used in a year? Would this RIB be used by all the family as a hotel or just to go around on long trips etc.
The expence of a proper (i.e. air con, confortable beds, water maker, heating, hot + cold water shower, micro wave, dishwasher, washing machine, cooker, beds NO BANKS etc etc) confortable cabin (RIB) depends on these (and MORE) parameters.
A line should be drawn however, as to how much one is prepared to spend for what is at the end of the day a CABIN ON A RIB (I know all about the safety aspects between a RIB and a cruiser but this is not the issue now).
By the way I hear prices of a 10 mtr cabin RIB to be in excess of £100,000 in the UK (and think that people must have lots of dosh to burn) where for that money one can buy a 38 ft sailing catamaran with PROPER accomodation for 10 people and lots and lots of space or indeed a large cruiser (may be up to 50 ft LOA 2nd hand) with all the comforts of life on it.
These are ONLY my views as a potential cabin RIB purchaser who is now reconsidering and has a re-think i.e. should I stay with the open RIB instead??

[Andre]

Cabin ribs

Manos

earlier on I posted 2 photos of a Parker 750 cabin rib. This rib is used by the inland water rescue WOPR in Poland in the Mazurian lake district. The inland water rescue service in Poland favour cabin ribs since a lot of patrolling is carried out and in different weather conditions. On the lakes which are huge there are no great waves like on the seas and the addition of a cabin does not have much affect on the speed and performance of the rib. The same rib with cabin would not be suitable or effective for off/ inshore rescue. Here the requirement is for open ribs .
The cabin is typical for commercial application, ie jockey seatings and space for navigation aids, no space for bunks or even a portable loo as these luxury items are not required.

Andre

[crazyhorse]

Manos,

You Temptress you,
You are quite right,There seems to be some confusion over what is a Cabin Rib.
I think an open boat with a cabin on it has advantages in good weather in daylight.You can go offshore cruise to places pop in to the beach,stay overnight in the front Cabin whilst moored of the beach and genuinly enjoy yourself.Grate for weekends away for 2.
You can be home for tea on Sunday.

Now then,Im sorry if I upset anybody but,thats your lot for 125kplus?

If you want to use it at night it will be cold,maybe wet in any country you go to.You couldnt get 4 people and two dogs on there for sure.
This is proberbly one of my daftest statements so far,but we went for a 4 berth wheelhouse rib cruiser becouse we have two tiny little dogs and a my very annoying partners sister,who will be bumming a ride with a new boyfrend every 6 months.

I initially wanted a 2 berth but realised that for a familly it was inpractical and I expect more for a 100k+.

A rib with a wheelhouse is the most econimicl transport you can get and its versatility is exeptional,as your pushing fresh air.

Running costs are important to us as we going to retire and use the boat,so when red becomes £4.00 a gallon it will not be to much trouble.

Withought boreing you a true Cabin Rib canot be beat.Once you go over a certain size the benefits decrease.That size is dependant on hp and weight and economy.There is also an optimum speed,and Dag Pikes book inflatable boats goes into those.You cant do more than 10knts in real lumpy bad weather anyway.

When a boat is built to Loyds service craft rules check the small print in your manual it will say a vessel should be navigated at a reasonable speed for the conditions.I.E if you drive it like a mad man there is no warrantie,and the stucture/and design is based on those loads at there speed restrictions.You can be held responsible if you had a problem and over did it,and it might not be with the law,it could be with Mother nature herself?.All teck stuff.

See ya soon Manos.

Crazyhorse