Compulsory licensing and mandatory kill cords? What do you think?

[ajstars]

Just putting my tuppence in...

Kill cords - as has been proved by the range of posts on here - look for quality. I think the majority of people would like to think and probably do use it. It's a case of getting into the habit.
Stickers - love them or hate them, if having a sticker is that one reminder to attach the cord that is needed and it saves even just one life then why not?

Personally I don't think fines are realistic - it is impossible to 'police' it.
What I would like to see is a better and quicker method of clipping the cord to clothing or to a life jacket etc. even maybe something as simple as a dedicated stainless karibener or a quick release buckle added to the standard kill cord as an addition to it which is permanently attached to clothing as many already do, rather than clipping it round a leg etc.
Maybe this and a sticker as a freebie would encourage people to remember to attach it?

If it makes it safer and it saves a life then there's no harm in it. Maybe if you're not wearing it and you have an accident such as in Padstow your insurance (if held) might be more reluctant to pay out?

Be safe!

[Barcobird]

Originally Posted by wavelength

aah yes european exams and our past clients who live over there. One came back here for L2 as they could do a course in one european state for £xxxx hundreds of pounds but in the neighbouring country it was much cheaper but had to be done in the local language which he did not speak.
Provider told that didnt matter as they would give him the multi choice question paper and also the answer paper. All he had to do was copy the answers onto the question paper and he would get his licence. Go out in a boat? - no didnt need to do that!
Pay tax on m'boat to pay the wages of the army of new civil service/local govt officials to come and check m'boat??, no thank you. I seem to think it was the size of the civil service and other govt employees that got certain countries into a situation were they had to be bailed out of their financial woes

and its not the govt that pays for the RNLI and independent lifeboats in the UK - we look after our own.

I was not suggesting you pay tax on your boat that is the system here, lets get the licensing laws sorted out first before upsetting people even further.

I am referring to Portugal so cannot comment on other countries, my daughter has just completed her license and she definitely had to go out on a boat.

You might look after your own lifeboats but do you like pouring money down the drain and do you pay for the helicopters as well?

[GTEM19889]

I do not think Kill cords are the answer. I think the answer is to have a spring loaded foot pedal throttle in a boat like a car has. I used to do powerboat racing and first raced in a hydroplane which had a spring loaded hand throttle. Later I moved onto a bigger boat that had a spring loaded foot throttle. That way, when you fall out the boat, the boat at least slows down to idle speed by default (just like a car effectively does).
The throttle as we know it in powerboats today were originally designed for river cruisers and narrow boats when they originally put engines in them. These boats travel at around 5 knots and a throttle that can remain fully open at that speed is usefull and in my view acceptable.
Therefore I would suggest that any vessel that can reach a speed higher than say 7 knots be fitted with a spring loaded throttle. Even better if it can cut right back into neutral when it is let go.
I dont think legislation is needed for this, simply have the big players like Mercury, Mariner & Yamaha start selling all new engines with these throttles by default or as a feature, the rest of the industry will soon see the sense and follow suite. You will not be able to replace the whole industry in one go but it will get there eventually.

A good example is Jetski's, Seadoo's, Wetbikes and tiller controlled outboard engines that already employ spring loaded throttles. (Unfortunately outboard engines also have a mechanism to allow you to tighten up the throttle which could effectively allow it to be left running at full throttle but I have yet to see anybody on a planing boat use that)

Just a thought

[simonnud]

Originally Posted by Anchorhandler

What kind of narrow minded statement is that?

Do you think the Padstow incident was an isolated one???

I can give you 20 examples of dangerous behaviour on the water just in the last few months alone.

Luckily they were all "near-miss' incidents but its only a matter of time....

One of our vessels very nerly collided with a motor cruiser only last week as the window-licker at the helm shot out of the Itchen heading over to Hythe marina and never saw our vessel's nav lights (it was night time).

So quite frankly i could'nt give two sh*t's if the helmsman of the Padstow rib had a ticket or not!

May he RIP...

Simon

All I am saying is that just because you have a licence dose not mean you can drive a boat. You talk about your near miss incidents but I bet you have had just as many near miss incidents when driving your car.

This is not narrow minded just my opinion.

I look forward to reading about your near miss which of course you would of reported to the relevant authority's.

[CJL]

The obvious compromise is to make sure all boats capable of travelling over a certain speed or hp must have them fitted after a certain date.

This is

1. easy to police,
2. a relatively minimal burden on business (particularly important when regulators are being instructed to promote growth)
3. and being bright red, a good reminder to wear it.

People are living in a dream world to suggest mandatory this and that - it's just not going to happen and there would have to be so many exemptions and questions posed it would be untrue.

Chris

[willk]

Originally Posted by Poly

how often do you believe that happens? I suspect it is relatively rare that someone's first boat is 300HP

It's shocking the eejits you find getting handed the best of kit with without so much as the once over. Shocking....

[Eddy Johansen]

Wireless kill cords actually exists.

For those of you that would like to have one, have a look at the norwegian Coastkey. It is a small gadget you e.g. put in your pocket and if you move away from the helm for some reason, it kills the engine.

As for using or not the kill cord, IMHO it is just a matter of being conscious or not. Just like using seat belt in a car. If you have a minimum of common sense, you know what can happen to you sooner or later if you do not use it.

I am not able to drive a car without wearing a seat belt. I am not able to drive a boat without having the kill cord attached to my leg. Nor am I able to drive a boat without wearing an inflatable lifejacket.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by chris.moody

A very small part of the 2 days is on handling a boat at planning speeds. So a PB2 course will help stop you denting and scratching your boat and other boats when manoeuvring, and make your boating less stressful, it will not teach you how to handle a boat in waves at speed.

I think that may depend somewhat on the school and instructor. Certainly on my course there was a good proportion (maybe 25% of the total time) which was at 20 knots+ and involve tight corners, "navigating" / "piloting" at speed. etc... not mine was 1 to 1 and I had some previous experience so perhaps he went beyond normal, or wanted to communicate the extra challenges of doing everything 5x the speed when the wind is the power...

However I do take your point - no course is going to cover every boat type and scenario.

Originally Posted by Barcobird

I live in Portugal and as a resident I have to have a license to drive a motorised boat. There are various grades dependant on the size of vehicle and how far it is aloud to travel. We also pay light dues. We also pay a tax which varies dependant on size of engine.

I think it is a belief that regulation will inevitably have costs that must be recovered = tax which puts people off.

We also pay insurance. You also have your boat inspected every five years which includes safety equipment. If you are stopped by the marine police out on the water and you have defaulted on any of the above then you will be fined.

we essentially have no marine police here - so either we need to pay for a new 'police force' to police an essentially law abiding section of the community OR the laws will not be enforced which means concerned citizens comply (at their cost) whilst the muppets continue to disregard the rules and do so scot free.

So what's the problem with this system, we very rarely get stranded boaters, running out of petrol or breaking down due to lack of maintenance. We do not cost the government millions in lifeboat call outs, most of which in England could be avoided.

as noted lifeboats don't cost the govenment or tax payer a penny. In general there isn't a stupid number of call outs, and I suspect no more than other countries where regulation is in place - if there is it may be because our government tend to ask the lifeboat to do simple tows rather than other nearby craft - which is what happens when civil servants get in the way of common sense and worry about being sued!

Face the facts, you are driving a dangerous vehicle which should be given respect as you do with a car. Young kids should not be bombing about in tenders from "Daddy's large boat".

I suspect that there are more British people doing this in Portugal than in the UK!

The licensing laws in England are non existent which is a joke. Unless something is done to rectify this unfortunately this latest very sad incident will not be the last.

Even with licensing this won't be the last. I can pretty much assure you that someone else will die from an avoidable kill cord/prop related injury either way. Do you have some statistics on the number of accidents at sea in Portugal? Stats are hard to compare between countries because they are collected, defined and analysed differently but you seem to believe there are almost no leisure boat fatalities in Portugal which I find hard to believe. Per head of population portugal seems to have a higher rate of accidental drowning than the UK - based on WHO stats.

Originally Posted by Barcobird

I was not suggesting you pay tax on your boat that is the system here, lets get the licensing laws sorted out first before upsetting people even further.

there is a cost - it can only be met by some sort of charge.

You might look after your own lifeboats but do you like pouring money down the drain and do you pay for the helicopters as well?

Well I wouldn't want any fewer helos than we have (are about to have) and so I'm not sure its pouring money away to use a resource that is there (and would be on training exercises if sitting doing nothing)

[Solent Ranger]

Originally Posted by Barcobird

I live in Portugal and as a resident I have to have a license to drive a motorised boat. There are various grades dependant on the size of vehicle and how far it is aloud to travel. We also pay light dues. We also pay a tax which varies dependant on size of engine. We also pay insurance. You also have your boat inspected every five years which includes safety equipment. If you are stopped by the marine police out on the water and you have defaulted on any of the above then you will be fined.
So what's the problem with this system, we very rarely get stranded boaters, running out of petrol or breaking down due to lack of maintenance. We do not cost the government millions in lifeboat call outs, most of which in England could be avoided.
Face the facts, you are driving a dangerous vehicle which should be given respect as you do with a car. Young kids should not be bombing about in tenders from "Daddy's large boat".
The licensing laws in England are non existent which is a joke. Unless something is done to rectify this unfortunately this latest very sad incident will not be the last.

Know a lot about the situation in the UK do you? From your post clearly not.

Just as a point, the UK government do not contribute to the RNLI - lifeboat to you - it is charity payed for by the people.

[bobatporty]

How many call outs by the RNLI and coastguard are to foreign boats in trouble for various reasons and don't pay for the service

[Anchorhandler]

Originally Posted by simonnud

All I am saying is that just because you have a licence dose not mean you can drive a boat. You talk about your near miss incidents but I bet you have had just as many near miss incidents when driving your car.

This is not narrow minded just my opinion.

I look forward to reading about your near miss which of course you would of reported to the relevant authority's.

Appologies if i was a bit aggresive in my response but you have to appreciate it from the point of view of the people that are well placed to see it all. Ask any ABP Pilot or VTSO about pleasure boaters and they will concur with what i have stated. Speak to the lads that crew the Harbour Master's launches or the skippers of ferries engaged on local routes and they too will agree that a minimim qualification is needed.

Im sorry but there is a real issue out there of the standards dropping.

As for a commercial vessel reporting a near miss with a pleasure boater.... Sorry but that shows how naive people are to the problem.

Who would we report them too anyway the MAIB??, VTS? The HArbour Master

If it only happened once in a blue moon then yeah, we could justify the time and effort to do it and i'm sure the relevent authorities would listen attentively but unfortunately we're way past that now.
If we as a company, along with other commercial operators out there in the UK reported every incident, the MAIB and VTS's around the country would come to a grinding halt...

Welcome to the real world of pleasure boater/commercial shipping interaction.

If you want to read some of our classic near misses then do a search on here, i've posted a few good ones (with pictures) over the last few years. Shouldnt be too difficult to find them.

If it makes everyone feel any better i would say that a higher percentage of problems we experience are caused by WAFI's rather than powerboats/ribs..

Simon

[Eddy Johansen]

Originally Posted by Poly

I can pretty much assure you that someone else will die from an avoidable kill cord/prop related injury either way. Do you have some statistics on the number of accidents at sea in Portugal? Stats are hard to compare between countries because they are collected, defined and analysed differently but you seem to believe there are almost no leisure boat fatalities in Portugal which I find hard to believe. Per head of population portugal seems to have a higher rate of accidental drowning than the UK - based on WHO stats.

There are in fact very few boating related fatalities totally in Portugal. Simply because there is very little boating compared to e.g. the UK or Norway, specially high speed boating. A typically (average) portuguese boater goes out fishing in a peche-promenade type of boat.

Now, if you take fatalities pr. million hours use of boats, you will most likely end up with more drownings from falling over board or capsizings caused by waves/surf than in the UK.

[Anchorhandler]

Originally Posted by Anchorhandler

Appologies if i was a bit aggresive in my response but you have to appreciate it from the point of view of the people that are well placed to see it all. Ask any ABP Pilot or VTSO about pleasure boaters and they will concur with what i have stated. Speak to the lads that crew the Harbour Master's launches or the skippers of ferries engaged on local routes and they too will agree that a minimim qualification is needed.

Im sorry but there is a real issue out there of the standards dropping.

As for a commercial vessel reporting a near miss with a pleasure boater.... Sorry but that shows how naive people are to the problem.

Who would we report them too anyway the MAIB??, VTS? The HArbour Master

If it only happened once in a blue moon then yeah, we could justify the time and effort to do it and i'm sure the relevent authorities would listen attentively but unfortunately we're way past that now.
If we as a company, along with other commercial operators out there in the UK reported every incident, the MAIB and VTS's around the country would come to a grinding halt...

Welcome to the real world of pleasure boater/commercial shipping interaction.

If you want to read some of our classic near misses then do a search on here, i've posted a few good ones (with pictures) over the last few years. Shouldnt be too difficult to find them.

If it makes everyone feel any better i would say that a higher percentage of problems we experience are caused by WAFI's rather than powerboats/ribs..

Simon

Incidentally before i get lambasted any further I actually voted against mandatory qualification in the Rib.net poll.

I did this because i do agree that at the moment a mandatory qualfication is probably a step too far. As i have mentioned already in this thread though, I would like to see a gov't funded basic 'sea safety' certificate issued by the MCGA and would hope this would also cover the basic rules of the road.

Simon

[Solent Ranger]

Originally Posted by Anchorhandler

Appologies if i was a bit aggresive in my response but you have to appreciate it from the point of view of the people that are well placed to see it all. Ask any ABP Pilot or VTSO about pleasure boaters and they will concur with what i have stated. Speak to the lads that crew the Harbour Master's launches or the skippers of ferries engaged on local routes and they too will agree that a minimim qualification is needed.

Im sorry but there is a real issue out there of the standards dropping.

As for a commercial vessel reporting a near miss with a pleasure boater.... Sorry but that shows how naive people are to the problem.

Who would we report them too anyway the MAIB??, VTS? The HArbour Master

If it only happened once in a blue moon then yeah, we could justify the time and effort to do it and i'm sure the relevent authorities would listen attentively but unfortunately we're way past that now.
If we as a company, along with other commercial operators out there in the UK reported every incident, the MAIB and VTS's around the country would come to a grinding halt...

Welcome to the real world of pleasure boater/commercial shipping interaction.

If you want to read some of our classic near misses then do a search on here, i've posted a few good ones (with pictures) over the last few years. Shouldnt be too difficult to find them.

If it makes everyone feel any better i would say that a higher percentage of problems we experience are caused by WAFI's rather than powerboats/ribs..

Simon

So do you believe that compulsory certification would change the situation ? If so, why? This month so far 20 people have completed courses through my centre . All of them have chosen to be trained because they want to be safe. They are told that we can't turn them into experts in 2 days, but they also have to work as well.

[Anchorhandler]

Originally Posted by Solent Ranger

So do you believe that compulsory certification would change the situation ? If so, why? This month so far 20 people have completed courses through my centre . All of them have chosen to be trained because they want to be safe. They are told that we can't turn them into experts in 2 days, but they also have to work as well.

Hi

I think you were probably typing your response as i posted my last one which went in just before yours

It answers your question.

Simon

[Seamonstie]

I have gone over to the dark side and sold my rib and brought a sailing boat, however when ribbing I always used to clip the kill cord around a loop on my lifejacket. Worked for me.

[Solent Ranger]

Originally Posted by Seamonstie

I have gone over to the dark side and sold my rib and brought a sailing boat, however when ribbing I always used to clip the kill cord around a loop on my lifejacket. Worked for me.

You were lucky then!

[bobatporty]

Just watching "Squid vs Whale" on Natgeo wild.
A small inflatable boat with 6 people in it including camera man and sound man, no one had life jackets on, no kill cord the boat was hit by a sperm whale nearly knocking everyone out of the boat.
If the so called experts, Qualified captain on the support boat, can't get it right with the so called licences whats the use of taxing the public anymore for their hobbies.

[Anchorhandler]

Originally Posted by Solent Ranger

So do you believe that compulsory certification would change the situation ? If so, why? This month so far 20 people have completed courses through my centre . All of them have chosen to be trained because they want to be safe. They are told that we can't turn them into experts in 2 days, but they also have to work as well.

Actually, while we're there, how many of those 20 people had already bought a boat and used it before comming to you guys?

The reason i ask is that i started boating back in 1990 when i bought a very basic old Glastron speedboat with a blueband Merc on it.....
obviously it needed to be fitted out with the all the necessay equipment prior to setting sail so a car stereo and some Pye speakers were duly installed

I then started blasting around the Solent without a care in the world

I look back now and cringe at how ignorant i was and am thankfull that i never had any major incidents.

The point is, how many people out there still start this way? Only after a certain amount of time later, decide to get some form of qualification?

Simon

[roohairy]

The qualification isn't necessary, the competency is....