Compulsory licensing and mandatory kill cords? What do you think?

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Anchorhandler

Speak to the lads that crew the Harbour Master's launches or the skippers of ferries engaged on local routes and they too will agree that a minimim qualification is needed.

Im sorry but there is a real issue out there of the standards dropping.

As for a commercial vessel reporting a near miss with a pleasure boater.... Sorry but that shows how naive people are to the problem.

Who would we report them too anyway the MAIB??, VTS? The HArbour Master

If it only happened once in a blue moon then yeah, we could justify the time and effort to do it and i'm sure the relevent authorities would listen attentively but unfortunately we're way past that now.
If we as a company, along with other commercial operators out there in the UK reported every incident, the MAIB and VTS's around the country would come to a grinding halt...

Simon, some / many of those boats will already be breaking some local byelaws yet very few get any enforcement action. You can't expect things to improve if people get away with it. Bringing in new laws wouldn't help if you can't enforce the existing ones.

[Anchorhandler]

Originally Posted by Poly

Simon, some / many of those boats will already be breaking some local byelaws yet very few get any enforcement action. You can't expect things to improve if people get away with it. Bringing in new laws wouldn't help if you can't enforce the existing ones.

Hi Poly

I do hear what your saying but things are afoot to rectify this. In fact a recent thread on here outlining the bill on harbour authorities powers describes how and why some of the changes are taking place.

I don't want to open up another can of worms ( especially today) but soon ABP will hopefully have much more bite rather than just a feeble bark.


Simon

Sent from my iPhone using Rib.net

[thomas]

Putting licences aside for a second, if you are driving your RIB with no insurance and you hit and paralyse someone, you've destroyed their life, have no means to compensate them enough and you will probably loose everything too. Likewise you'd all be pretty hacked of off your car was hit by an uninsured driver and you we left footing the bill.

I've not voted as I see both sides but this big brother I'm alright jack and change is bad is not the right approach, yes at the moment things are probably ok as they are but RIBs and small power boats are becoming more and more popular and we are going to see more accidents in the future, if nothing else insurance should be mandatory. As for policing, all the harbour authorities do a bloody good job collecting their dues so it wouldn't take much to police boats in popular areas.

[paddlers]

I suspect many on here started at a young age with a cheap/borrowed boat either on the coast or as I did rivers & the Lake District. I used to waterski on Ullswater until they brought in the speed limit for free with no regulation in the 1980's then Windermere with the registration system but well policed by the wardens until they brought in the speed limits so that was that. For the last couple of years we've gone up to the Mull of Kintyre & my lads both 14 have a 3m plus sib with a hard deck, last year they had a 4.5hp Mercury this year a 15hp Mercury fitted with a kill cord. We also take a 17ft hardboat with a 135 on the back. It adds to the fun that we ALWAYS wear lifejackets, kill cords and have vhf/flares/drogue/anchors etc No amount of legislation will teach people common sense, I hope my kids when they are older & earning a few quid will be able to enjoy the freedoms I currently do & have done boating without being burdened by regulations. Safety first then enjoy !! By the way I do buy my boats/engines on ebay....

[SeaSkills]

Originally Posted by bobatporty

How many call outs by the RNLI and coastguard are to foreign boats in trouble for various reasons and don't pay for the service

I'm not too sure where you were going with this, but my guess would be that the number of foreign boats assisted in UK waters is far fewer than the number of British (or at least red-flagged) boats assisted in foreign waters. No reflection on competence - or lack of - from either group, simply a recognition of the number of boats that choose to sail under the red flag ... and of course pay for that privilege

[Kraken999]

Wow. That was a lot of posts to read.

Seems to me that we are all basically agreed that it is a very good idea to be in receipt of basic training before getting afloat and that it is sensible to wear a kill cord.

The issue seems to come down to whether or not we must be compelled to do so by legislation.

I am a Regular Police Officer of very nearly 30 years service and involved in Marine Policing, a PBI, a Harbour Commissioner, a leisure yachtsman and Ribster. I see this issue from just about every angle.

My personal view is that new legislation will not assist or improve the situation. Those of you who think that the marine environment is not already legislated for are under the wrong impression. For instance if you put to sea and negligently cause injury or death to others or operate your vessel in a dangerous manner then there is a plethora of Merchant Shipping Act and Harbour Bye Law laws that could be brought to bear. In fact all the laws of the land extend out to the 12 mile limit and some beyond on British Vessels. The problem of course is that there is little or no enforcement afloat and to be fair the need compared to ashore is minimal when you rationally compare the incidence of transgressions afloat with ashore.

Education is the most powerful weapon. For instance take the Misuse of Drugs Act. Has that protected individuals from harmful controlled drugs? My experience is it hasn't. Yes it has provided a sanction for those caught but it has failed to protect in the main. Whereas improved education and availability of education and information over the last decade or more has. Hence the number of drug abusers nationally is falling.

Prevention is better than cure. Vehicle crime has plummeted over recent years as crime opportunities have been engineered out. No one steals car audio systems now and you'd be hard pushed to steal a car without the key.

Of course regulation would benefit me from an employment situation as an enforcer and instructor and not affect me as I've already got qualifications. Despite that I'm not in favour of more regulation. Especially of the knee jerk type. Remember that brainwave suggestion of taking unruly yobs to the cash point to pay an instant fine? Yeah right.

There has been an enormous amount of new legislation over the last decade. Much of it totally unnecessary and a reinvention or duplication of legislation that already exists. Take using a mobile phone whilst driving. There already existed and still does an offence of not being in a position to have full and proper control of a motor vehicle or driving without due care and attention.

Someone posted that you can't drive a car without a licence. Let me assure you that many people can and do. It's not legal obviously but it's possible and happens.

When I'm afloat in Police mode and stop and speak with people and offer assistance or advice it's almost universally well received. Have a think about why it's not quite the same ashore.

Still we live in a democracy, I hope, and I'll acquiesce to the majority view. Hopefully we all can including those government interests who will exploit any new revenue stream and empire construction available from more new regulation.

In my view calls for legislation should only be made by representative bodies that have a clear mandate from those that they represent.

I see the kill cord sticker as a side issue. If you want one have one. I have an MCA one on my console. I don't think it does any harm and I think it probably helps remind me of its importance.

Anyway that's my personal contribution to the debate and is not necessarily the view of organisations I work with/for.

This is the longest I think I've ever been on line reading a thread. Er indoors has gone to bed so best wind in now before she wonders what I'm up to on here!

Regards & keep safe. Great debate by the way and some great ideas. Bought myself a small webbing dog lead down Trago this afternoon for clipping the kill cord onto round my leg.

[Jeff Hutcheon]

Originally Posted by Chris Caton

Hmmmmmm....... don't think one of these will gracing our rib console anytime soon

I wonder if it will patch my leaking rear tube??

[mister p]

Originally Posted by Poly

I think I started that so lets discuss it!


(1) Look at mandatory 3rd party insurance for powerboats (or all boats). Inevitably if there is correlation between risk and training, then underwriters would be able to offer financial incentives for appropriate training. It is much easier to manage boats coming on/off the water or in/out harbours/marinas than to know who is driving a boat and how out at sea.
(2) Encourage boat sales to focus on training, kill cord placement / design / labelling / engineering to make their use more effective / automatic. How many vendors selling a £20k+ boat include any training with it other than a basic handover.
(3) Refuse to publish any pictures or adverts where kill cords are not being worn.
(4) Provide advertising posters showing (visually as per cigarette packets) what happens if you don't wear a cord to harbours, marinas, slipways and clubs. I'm sure you could even put your logo on them to add that extra bit of "professional credibility".

If it turns out that:

(1) the accident last weekend was by someone who had been trained OR
(2) the kill cord was being worn but failed in some way / became detached

will you be dropping your campaign?

If next week there is a family killed "because" they don't have lifejackets on will you begin another campaign?

I spoke with Hugo for over half an hour this afternoon about this very thread.
The four points listed above by Poly are exactly what HMS brought up.
I told him that I was against legislation, actually more against "knee-jerk" legislation, and the whole whirlpool of financial burden and taxation (same thing) that would bring.
But it came down to the seatbelt analogy..........re KC's, if they're there only the daft don't wear them and some won't simply because it's the law, others forget.
But there's nothing wrong with compulsory third party insurance and the resultant lowering of a premium that a competence ( or awareness of hazards ) test would provide.
As an editor of a publication at the front of our interests he has a responsibility to react to certain circumstances but also act in the best interests of his readership.
After our chat I don't believe his reaction was not considered but perhaps a little lacking in explanation as to the broader consequences for all of us RIB users and indeed boaters.
I still believe that the consequences of legislation may take the wrong path if not monitored.
It will be down to us to keep on top of it as do the Motorcycle Action Group with matters relating to two wheels and legislation.
But we need to do it together.

[roohairy]

I have the feeling that the presentation of this campaign as a need to compel people to use safety equipment undermines the educational lesson. If this were presented as a broad based campaign to have all responsible powerboat owners display the sticker by choice I think that there would have been a more positive reception to it. Remember the old RNLI Sea Sense campaign? We seem to be getting deeper and deeper into a society where we abdicate common sense to a belief that is there is a rule about something, then it must be safe. And inversely (perversely?) that we can can write enough rules to remove all danger.

[chris262112]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

Powerboat & RIB Magazine is campaigning for compulsory licensing for powerboat users, and for kill cords to be mandatory with fines imposed for anyone not complying.

Do you agree that following the incident at Padstow this weekend the time has come to bring in legislation? Or do you think the current system is sufficient?

There's a poll at the top of this thread. It's anonymous so please click on the option that you favour. Feel free to discuss the ramifications of either option, or if you feel I've left something out.

It closes in 7 days.

Going to sea is in its self a risk . Accidents at sea are rare .mans disregard for safety is a fore gone conclusion . Legislation is for sheep. Go on the water and be careful .

[wavelength]

Going to sea is in its self a risk . Accidents at sea are rare .mans disregard for safety is a fore gone conclusion . Legislation is for sheep. Go on the water and be careful

Lovin it!

[navig8]

Many owners only take their boat out in summer, which means that they lack experience and haven't always developed good habits. Often, a few simple regulations raise awareness of issues like kill cords and act as a checklist for the part time and novice boaters.

Where there is the evidence (accident data etc), I think that some well drafted legislation can improve safety without impacting on the enjoyment.

[frankc]

I believe the moves to try to protect people from anything which might happen is ridiculous. Just how many lives would a law like this save and why open the door to more needless fines and regulations.

It is an insult to people to try to do something like this. This would be similar to a law requiring a license in order for a person to walk across the street.

[ssobol]

In my experience the people with the most disregard for the normal rules of society generally feel that said rules don't apply to them anyway due to an exaggerated sense of entitlement. As a result any legislated rule will be ignored by exactly the type of people it is intended to apply to.

Boaters who are responsible for their actions already do all the things any new legislation will require.

It's like to brouhaha about gun registration in the states right now. Responsible gun owners will register their guns. People who actually want a gun for nefarious purposes won't. So what exactly is being accomplished? (Other than the politicians trying to look busy.)

[jcn96]

really How much goverment do you think we need ? goood old United States,
another case of the Tail wagging the Dog,,

[derdle]

"Power Boat and Rib Kill chord stickers"

What a cracking idea!!!!

may be they can stick a few around there office and let us know if they work,


Photos from PB&R page 51,52 issue 111 March/Apr
Boat test Excel Virage 670


:r ofl:

[HughN]

Originally Posted by derdle

Photos from PB&R page 51,52 issue 111 March/Apr
Boat test Excel Virage 670


:r ofl:

Ouch!

[robert walker]

Hi guys.
Its nice to know that otherrs share my view.
Kill cords are an absolute life saftey measure and should be always used.
On the other hand they could be used around the necks of people who cause therse tragedies.
Licence fees go to the people who are always constantly ripping us off why give them more it wont save single life.

The guy who risked his life to save these people should be given a medal and a six pack. Good on you mate.
Bob

[boristhebold]

Originally Posted by derdle

"Power Boat and Rib Kill chord stickers"

What a cracking idea!!!!

may be they can stick a few around there office and let us know if they work,


Photos from PB&R page 51,52 issue 111 March/Apr
Boat test Excel Virage 670


:r ofl:

Most boat mags are full of images of people in ribs and small hard boats underway and not wearing the kill cord or not wearing life jackets or both. Maybe the magazines should stop including images like that.

[harryesd]

Originally Posted by GTEM19889

I do not think Kill cords are the answer. I think the answer is to have a spring loaded foot pedal throttle in a boat like a car has. I used to do powerboat racing and first raced in a hydroplane which had a spring loaded hand throttle. Later I moved onto a bigger boat that had a spring loaded foot throttle. That way, when you fall out the boat, the boat at least slows down to idle speed by default (just like a car effectively does).
The throttle as we know it in powerboats today were originally designed for river cruisers and narrow boats when they originally put engines in them. These boats travel at around 5 knots and a throttle that can remain fully open at that speed is usefull and in my view acceptable.
Therefore I would suggest that any vessel that can reach a speed higher than say 7 knots be fitted with a spring loaded throttle. Even better if it can cut right back into neutral when it is let go.
I dont think legislation is needed for this, simply have the big players like Mercury, Mariner & Yamaha start selling all new engines with these throttles by default or as a feature, the rest of the industry will soon see the sense and follow suite. You will not be able to replace the whole industry in one go but it will get there eventually.

A good example is Jetski's, Seadoo's, Wetbikes and tiller controlled outboard engines that already employ spring loaded throttles. (Unfortunately outboard engines also have a mechanism to allow you to tighten up the throttle which could effectively allow it to be left running at full throttle but I have yet to see anybody on a planing boat use that)

Just a thought

Try swimming after a boat on tick over....while your at it you could try stopping the prop with your head or chest....it's not a case of slowing the craft down, it's stopping it.
Not having a pop at you, any idea is worth thinking about...but i'm pretty sure this one has been done and dusted.