Compulsory licensing and mandatory kill cords? What do you think?

[Cookee]

Originally Posted by derdle

2. The boat and engine manufacturers should work together on a wireless immobilizer that if submerged or moved an x distance from boat or engine will kill it. It could easily be designed to need skin contact to work. (immobilizers have been on other vehicles/equipment for years). This will also cancel out the reasons some people are giving for not wanting to wear kill chords
3. A very basic one day course with a written exam focusing mostly on safety and basic rules of the road etc. And as the RNLI have the most first hand experience of the result on a lack of training they could design and run the courses and the money generated should go directly to them offering them additional revenue.

Skin contact? How would you manage that? What other device needs skin contact to work? Where would you fit it?

The RNLI would have to hire and train a whole bunch of instructors and trainers to train them, the people that would come forward for that sort of job would be existing RYA instructors who are already doing a similar RYA powerboat course.

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

I wonder if we could get a pro forma letter to send/email.

Anyone up for it?

That would work if you got everyone to agree first ...........

[Portholme]

I cant see how compulsory training could be delivered practically. How would there be enough trainer capacity to cover all powerboat owners and users in the UK?

Would they let you use your boat while they trained enough trainers? When driving tests came in it was only for new drivers - that approach would kind of miss the point here!

[harryesd]

[QUOTE=derdle;536008]
2. The boat and engine manufacturers should work together on a wireless immobilizer that if submerged or moved an x distance from boat or engine will kill it. It could easily be designed to need skin contact to work. (immobilizers have been on other vehicles/equipment for years). This will also cancel out the reasons some people are giving for not wanting to wear kill chords
QUOTE]

Some of us go out in all weathers not just T shirts and short sleeves. most of the time iv'e a dry suit on, wrist seals to the back of my hand, then tight gloves, also skull cap and helmet. only bit of skin showing is my nose ?
How would this work ??

[Dirk Diggler]

[QUOTE=harryesd;536084]

Originally Posted by derdle

How would this work ??

one of these...

[harryesd]

[QUOTE=Dirk Diggler;536090]

Originally Posted by harryesd

one of these...

[mister p]

Originally Posted by Cookee

That would work if you got everyone to agree first ...........

Which was my point to HMS......

[azzurro]

Originally Posted by HughN

Whilst noting that any accidental death is tragic, HMS stated "19 fatalities in 4 years". This will be less than 19 distinct incidents because some of these involved incidents with more than one fatality, but lets go for a rate of 5 fatalities a year and make a comparison.

In 2010:

* 3 people died as a result of dog bites
* 7 people died as a result of being bitten by 'other mammals'
* 3 people died as a result of falling into swimming pools
* 5 people died as a result of accidental suffocation in bed
* 17 people died as a result of contact with heat or hot substances (including barbecues, I assume)
* 5 people died as a result of contact with wasps, hornets or bees
* 6 people died due to lack of food.
* 9 people died as a result of falling from cliffs
* 6 women died as a result of a fall from a ladder
* 29 people died after drowning in the bath.

Shall we introduce mandatory training for barbecues at the point of sale, classes for bed-making and fence in all swimming-pools and cliffs?

We oughtn't limit our altruism by familiarity with Ribs: lets include all vessels, including sailing boats - after all, they can be large, move quickly, have limited capabilities for changing of direction/speed and generally go out in windy conditions. They don't, for instance, slice in front of oil tankers...

Would it be flawed to suggest that anyone over 35 tends to be more capable of assessing risk than people under 35 who have generally been surrounded by Health and Safety?

You are twisting statistics. Are there as many dogs as powerboats?

[longjohn]

All this talk of spring loaded hand or foot throttles as alternatives to kill cords makes we wonder how many people on this site have actually driven a rib!!
It seems to me this would be a sure fire way to eject all the crew, on every outing, with the jerky stop-start progress that would inevitably result from such a throttle arrangement!
Tragic in the extreme as this accident is - it is thankfully a rarity, certainly compared to the accident tolls on the roads or indeed many other types of extreme sport. There is no need to get hysterical and blow the danger out of all proportion in a knee-jerk and sensationalist manner.
Kill cords are a neat, simple and effective measure - albeit, as with most safety measures they are not 100% foolproof. Lets just strive to get them used 100% of the time.

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by Cookee

That would work if you got everyone to agree first ...........

I see your point.

Personally I want to keep big government out of leisure boating completely.
I've said it before, but having had to deal with the watered down beaurocratic waste of time that is the driver's CPC,the ridiculously overcomplicated tachograph laws and then being charged to change the photograph on my driving licence by DVLA (something which we were promised was going to be free!) I don't trust Whitehall not to:-

• Use a quango for research led by someone with no clue and an agenda/farm the research out to Capita/a 'green' company with an agenda
• Put in place such a watered down scheme it's pointless
• Charge through the nose for a meaningless piece of paper
• Lose all our details
• Employ researchers who selectively ignore anything they disagree with
• Use us as a public whipping boy to win votes
• Introduce spiralling 'Administration' charges
• Introduce compulsory registration 'just to keep track of it'
• Introduce a 'green tax' based on the size of your motor and how much fuel it burns
• Let DVLA administer it all and give them carte blanche on charging for renewals

If you don't believe me, does anyone remember the original purpose of the road tax? Or does anyone (like me) have to pay a 'residents parking' charge? We were promised that it would never go past £10 a year to pay for the admin of the permits.I'm now paying £175 a year.

I've done 'political activism' in various guises before. In order to actually get anything done that isn't exactly what the faceless beaurocrats in a brainstorming session have already decided on, it takes your entire life and you feel like you're getting nowhere for most of it.
The amount of wrangling they'll do is tantamount to trying to follow the plot of 5 soap operas ,on 5 screens at the same time over a period of years with earplugs in.
There's a whole industry round it, they seem to do it for fun and they don't seem to have any grounding in the real world.

Meanwhile, those that the legislation is actually aimed at will be either unaware that it exists or will ignore it.

If we get legislated against, we're screwed. I don't know about you guys, but I don't have the energy or time to defend my last actual freedom.I don't get anywhere near as much time on the water as I want and I have a job.

Actually ASKING for legislation to be put in place is like a turkey voting for christmas.

[Rokraider]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

I see your point.

Personally I want to keep big government out of leisure boating completely.
I've said it before, but having had to deal with the watered down beaurocratic waste of time that is the driver's CPC,the ridiculously overcomplicated tachograph laws and then being charged to change the photograph on my driving licence by DVLA (something which we were promised was going to be free!) I don't trust Whitehall not to:-

• Use a quango for research led by someone with no clue and an agenda/farm the research out to Capita/a 'green' company with an agenda
• Put in place such a watered down scheme it's pointless
• Charge through the nose for a meaningless piece of paper
• Lose all our details
• Employ researchers who selectively ignore anything they disagree with
• Use us as a public whipping boy to win votes
• Introduce spiralling 'Administration' charges
• Introduce compulsory registration 'just to keep track of it'
• Introduce a 'green tax' based on the size of your motor and how much fuel it burns
• Let DVLA administer it all and give them carte blanche on charging for renewals

If you don't believe me, does anyone remember the original purpose of the road tax? Or does anyone (like me) have to pay a 'residents parking' charge? We were promised that it would never go past £10 a year to pay for the admin of the permits.I'm now paying £175 a year.

I've done 'political activism' in various guises before. In order to actually get anything done that isn't exactly what the faceless beaurocrats in a brainstorming session have already decided on, it takes your entire life and you feel like you're getting nowhere for most of it.
The amount of wrangling they'll do is tantamount to trying to follow the plot of 5 soap operas ,on 5 screens at the same time over a period of years with earplugs in.
There's a whole industry round it, they seem to do it for fun and they don't seem to have any grounding in the real world.

Meanwhile, those that the legislation is actually aimed at will be either unaware that it exists or will ignore it.

If we get legislated against, we're screwed. I don't know about you guys, but I don't have the energy or time to defend my last actual freedom.I don't get anywhere near as much time on the water as I want and I have a job.

Actually ASKING for legislation to be put in place is like a turkey voting for christmas.

Yeah! What he said!

[derdle]

[QUOTE=harryesd;536084]

Originally Posted by derdle

2. The boat and engine manufacturers should work together on a wireless immobilizer that if submerged or moved an x distance from boat or engine will kill it. It could easily be designed to need skin contact to work. (immobilizers have been on other vehicles/equipment for years). This will also cancel out the reasons some people are giving for not wanting to wear kill chords
QUOTE]

Some of us go out in all weathers not just T shirts and short sleeves. most of the time iv'e a dry suit on, wrist seals to the back of my hand, then tight gloves, also skull cap and helmet. only bit of skin showing is my nose ?
How would this work ??

You where it under your dry suit. I assume you have got other clothes on underneath maybe even a belt. I didn't think going commando is a prerequisite of wearing a dry suit. it only needs to be the size of a car remote. on a bit of Velcro elastic.

[HughN]

Originally Posted by azzurro

You are twisting statistics. Are there as many dogs as powerboats?

Not deliberately twisting them, just making a very simple comparison with a '19 deaths in four years' argument. I don't suppose we would ever be able to make a comparison based upon 'deaths per hour of exposure to risk'

[Nos4r2]

[QUOTE=derdle;536127]

Originally Posted by harryesd

You where it under your dry suit. I assume you have got other clothes on underneath maybe even a belt. I didn't think going commando is a prerequisite of wearing a dry suit. it only needs to be the size of a car remote. on a bit of Velcro elastic.

What about when wIllfiSh wears his lycra leprechaun outfit? Will there be a special one for him?


Sorry, shouldn't take the mickey. Keeping skin contact is difficult, if not impossible and something inside a drysuit would mean stripping off in the cold if it stops working.

[HughN]

What would be the desirable characteristics for a kill-system that didn't require the helm to remember to arm/attach/connect it?

• It shall stop the engine within X seconds of being activated.
• It shall activate when the user is more than X m from the helm.
• It shall be possible to overide the device.
• When overridden a repeated alarm should bring the attention of the user the fact that it is overriden
• It shall be possible to cancel the override.
• Any device attached to the user shall be secure when fitted, and easy to fit.
• Any device attached to the user shall not require batteries.
• Any device attached to the user should be suitable for use with all types of clothing and across the anthropomorphic range of possible users.
• It shall not be affected by RF transmissions, etc.,
• It needs to be reliable: a very low false alarm rate; a 99.9% activation rate
• It should be capable of monitoring the presence of more than one individual.
• It shall not be possible to start the engine without a user being present or the override activated.
• It shall be capable of being retrofitted to boats currently equipped with kill-cords.
• It should draw no more than X ma current draw
• It needs to be waterproof, and perform to spec when wet
• It needs to display to the user its armed/activated/de-activated state
• It needs to be affordable.
• It needs to be intrinsically safe (no heat or sparks)
• It needs to be affordable

Just a thought (trying to be constructive). As a 'community' couldn't we come up with what we'd like to see and then push the idea? Anyone who took on board the idea and made the kit would at least know the potential users liked the features.

[paddlers]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

I see your point.

Personally I want to keep big government out of leisure boating completely.

I've said it before, but having had to deal with the watered down beaurocratic waste of time that is the driver's CPC,the ridiculously overcomplicated tachograph laws and then being charged to change the photograph on my driving licence by DVLA (something which we were promised was going to be free!) I don't trust Whitehall not to:-

• Use a quango for research led by someone with no clue and an agenda/farm the research out to Capita/a 'green' company with an agenda
• Put in place such a watered down scheme it's pointless
• Charge through the nose for a meaningless piece of paper
• Lose all our details
• Employ researchers who selectively ignore anything they disagree with
• Use us as a public whipping boy to win votes
• Introduce spiralling 'Administration' charges
• Introduce compulsory registration 'just to keep track of it'
• Introduce a 'green tax' based on the size of your motor and how much fuel it burns
• Let DVLA administer it all and give them carte blanche on charging for renewals

If you don't believe me, does anyone remember the original purpose of the road tax? Or does anyone (like me) have to pay a 'residents parking' charge? We were promised that it would never go past £10 a year to pay for the admin of the permits.I'm now paying £175 a year.

I've done 'political activism' in various guises before. In order to actually get anything done that isn't exactly what the faceless beaurocrats in a brainstorming session have already decided on, it takes your entire life and you feel like you're getting nowhere for most of it.
The amount of wrangling they'll do is tantamount to trying to follow the plot of 5 soap operas ,on 5 screens at the same time over a period of years with earplugs in.
There's a whole industry round it, they seem to do it for fun and they don't seem to have any grounding in the real world.

Meanwhile, those that the legislation is actually aimed at will be either unaware that it exists or will ignore it.

If we get legislated against, we're screwed. I don't know about you guys, but I don't have the energy or time to defend my last actual freedom.I don't get anywhere near as much time on the water as I want and I have a job.

Actually ASKING for legislation to be put in place is like a turkey voting for christmas.

Nos4r2 is a voice of reason in this debate ! I've never met him but should our paths ever cross I'd be happy to sink a pint or something stronger with him !!! I cannot believe ANYBODY would want legislation by some faceless inept government department. Happy to do a course, happy to teach my family the right & safe way when aboard a boat & if they wish I'll pay for them to do a course!!! You'll never stop bad luck or stupid by legislation, education is the way forward.

[derdle]

Originally Posted by Cookee

Skin contact? How would you manage that? What other device needs skin contact to work? Where would you fit it?

The RNLI would have to hire and train a whole bunch of instructors and trainers to train them, the people that would come forward for that sort of job would be existing RYA instructors who are already doing a similar RYA powerboat course.

.

Skin is conductive! thats why you don't stick your fingers in plug sockets.

a simple 9 volt current running between two contacts on an immobilizer the size of a car fob that you fit with Velcro elastic to a body part wrist arm leg ankle or Nose your choice you fit before you get on the boat and before dress up in what ever attire takes your fancy and it stays there all day you cant forget to connect it and as it doesn't get in the way it doesn't need to be bypassed. Anyway thats for the boffins work out. We have had immobilizers on cars since forever and now even key-less entry and start yet on a marine engine that can cost more than a good car we have a toggle switch tied to a piece of curly red wire.


in regards to the training a basic course layout
would not require any specific training other than real life experience that all members already have. Every one is moaning about the costs of compulsory training, Id rather my money went to a good cause. You could look at it as an insurance policy then at least the idiots on the water would collectively be paying for there rescue/recovery.

[Chris Caton]

Originally Posted by derdle

"Power Boat and Rib Kill chord stickers"

What a cracking idea!!!!

may be they can stick a few around there office and let us know if they work,


Photos from PB&R page 51,52 issue 111 March/Apr
Boat test Excel Virage 670

well, we all make mistakes, can't really see if my kill cord is on, but I'm sure No1 crew member would have put me straight
bear with the vid, Silver Fox put me onto it, approx 1min17secs, but be quick

Plas Coch Video 2 - YouTube

[JamesF]

As a 'community' couldn't we come up with what we'd like to see and then push the idea?

The only common ground I can really see here is that people want to be safe, and just over three quarters don't want to be forced into mandatory licenses and console placards (I'm with them).

Beyond that, some want sprung throttles, some want active-sensing wireless killcords, some want passive-sensing wireless killcords.

Personally, I'm entirely happy with the Mercury-style piece of reinforced string and a guarded toggle switch.

[chris.moody]

Originally Posted by JamesF

Personally, I'm entirely happy with the Mercury-style piece of reinforced string and a guarded toggle switch.

Agreed.

[derdle]

I'm starting to wonder if i should have voted for legislation after reading the post's on this site from so called experienced members justifying there reasons for not using kill chords, these are the people that need the education and training.

SH1T happens all day every day in every industry and you should do what you can to prevent it. When you get thrown out of your boat, pass out, have a heart attack or whatever and get chopped up because you feel that you are too experienced to use a basic safety device then thats your choice. But it isn't my choice if that boat runs into mine or runs up the beach and cuts up my wife and kids that may we swimming.
If you don't want to where a kill chord buy a field, dig a moat, fill it with water and drive round it all day long with your kill chord flapping in the wind but if you don't wear one when out in public don't try and justify it or your just as bad as the asshole that over takes on a blind bend and runs head on into a mother and kids.

Nobody wants to live in a nanny state so act responsibly to prevent it.

THATS MY RANT OVER