Compulsory licensing and mandatory kill cords? What do you think?

[GJ0KYZ]

Originally Posted by Water Merlin

What would we think of someone riding a jetski (PWC) without a kill cord ?

What would we think of a child on a bike without a helmet ?

What would we think of a motorcyclist without a helmet ?

Not very much given the low opinion most on this forum have of jet skiers.

I'd think "oh, look there's a kid without a helmet on, so what?" I was seriously into cycling for a number of years and never wore a helmet. I climbed for a lot longer still and never wore a helmet. Bike and climbing helmets are ghey.

I'd think "Look, there's a motorcyclist who's forgotten to put his helmet on" or "There's a french guy who's just come off the boat and doesn't realise il faut porter le casque ici".

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by kerny

I guess that you should have read this thread properly before posting your first post. Most of us are for wearing a KC but through education not legislation

Exactly.

Originally Posted by harryesd

Well said, it's like banging your head off a brick wall and thats just amongst us, god help us i we involve a government party.

Well said too.
I am beginning to despair that people are wading in and just assuming nobody here wants to wear a killcord. THat is NOT the case AT ALL.

READ THE THREAD! If you assume that we don't want to use killcords and you've voted, you haven't even read the questions!

I've said it before on this thread. We have a perfectly good safety solution-the killcord. It doesnt need reinventing. It works perfectly. If yours specifically doesn't , thats an issue with your boat layout and you need to fix it.

We don't need the watered down non-qualifications, the escalating admin fees or the taxes that regulation would bring.

[thomas]

Originally Posted by kerny

I guess that you should have read this thread properly before posting your first post. Most of us are for wearing a KC but through education not legislation

There is 40 pages to wade through! I gave up trying to keep up, my speed reading is not what it was.

Originally Posted by GJ0KYZ

I'd think "oh, look there's a kid without a helmet on, so what?" I was seriously into cycling for a number of years and never wore a helmet. I climbed for a lot longer still and never wore a helmet. Bike and climbing helmets are ghey.

There are somethings that you really should keep to yourself, I never wore a helmet climbing, skiing, cycling, or even riding horses but things have changed now, they even wear them skydiving, the world is a more dangerous place but technology means we can wear helmets without really noticing them and after seeing to relatives knocked out on the slopes and some pretty horrendous cycling accidents I'd consider anyone with your attitude a bit of an idiot.

[kerny]

Originally Posted by thomas

There is 40 pages to wade through! I gave up trying to keep up, my speed reading is not what it was.

Nowt wrong with your speed typing

[paddlers]

Maybe Nos4r2 you could for the less well read ( at least on this thread) re-state that most people DO wear their kill cords when fitted and are happy to do so rather than be forced to by legislation that could be expanded to cover all aspects of our hobby !!
Basically it started as poll to see what percentage of people want to be 'policed' when out enjoying the water with all the burden of fines and fees or preferred the current situation with the emphasis on education !!
If somebody chooses to ignore the benefits of safety gear I personally see that as their choice and if the tragedy of the accident in Padstow recently proves to be what happened although very sad no amount of legislation will alter that fact! Education will and if I have to educate my family on the benefits of safety equipment I'm more than happy to do so. To be honest I wouldn't want to put my lot in harms way or anyone elses.

[Nos4r2]

Ok....key point summary

• Thomas is a good guy who's giving away free killcord warning stickers,
• Very very few people don't want to wear killcords.
• Most forget every now and then and will try harder.
• Some have had a very nasty fright and will now wear them religiously.
• Cookee is special and has a very sexy fast boat with bondage straps so he's exempt
• Muppets are now arriving who aren't even reading the questions in the poll before voting.

Is that about right?

[paddlers]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

Ok....key point summary

• Thomas is a good guy who's giving away free killcord warning stickers,
• Very very few people don't want to wear killcords.
• Most forget every now and then and will try harder.
• Some have had a very nasty fright and will now wear them religiously.
• Cookee is special and has a very sexy fast boat with bondage straps so he's exempt
• Muppets are now arriving who aren't even reading the questions in the poll before voting.

Is that about right?

Nice summary !

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by paddlers

Maybe Nos4r2 you could for the less well read ( at least on this thread) re-state that most people DO wear their kill cords when fitted and are happy to do so rather than be forced to by legislation that could be expanded to cover all aspects of our hobby !!

Good idea-I might edit the title as it could clear some of this up.

<edit> I've edited the original post in big red bold letters. Hopefully it'll make people at least read the questions and first post properly.

[kerny]

[GJ0KYZ]

Originally Posted by thomas

There are somethings that you really should keep to yourself, I never wore a helmet climbing, skiing, cycling, or even riding horses but things have changed now, they even wear them skydiving, the world is a more dangerous place but technology means we can wear helmets without really noticing them and after seeing to relatives knocked out on the slopes and some pretty horrendous cycling accidents I'd consider anyone with your attitude a bit of an idiot.

I don't give a toss what you think my attitude is to be honest. 99% of climbers don't wear helmets because those are only designed to redistribute vertical impacts and most UK climbers are active on small crags with good quality rock. There's nothing wrong with wearing helmets in the hills but I'm talking about rock climbing not mountaineering. As for cycling - whatever; it's a personal choice. I get pretty fed up of seeing lard arses riding around at the weekend on their Litespeed frames, 10 abreast, all wearing helmets and strolling along at 10mph. Simply ghey. Go and do a couple of circuits of Constitution Hill in Swansea; that'll put the colour back in their cheeks.

[kerny]

Originally Posted by GJ0KYZ

I don't give a toss what you think my attitude is to be honest.

[mister p]

Originally Posted by kerny

Totally agreed

[Nos4r2]

And breathe...

On a better note, much kudos to Ballistic/Boating Dynamix for tweeting a link to this thread.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Water Merlin

What would we think of someone riding a jetski (PWC) without a kill cord ?

I'd think it was a bit silly, just the same as a rib; but I don't see that making it illegal would make it any less likely?

What would we think of a child on a bike without a helmet ?

I would think - there is a child getting into a possibly lifelong habit of physical exercise which will probably do far more for his life expectancy than any helmet. I'd also be glad that his parents hadn't fallen into a mistaken belief that an inch or two of badly fitted polystyrene was going to save him from everything life might direct at him despite their being little supporting evidence of a net overall benefit. There is some evidence that motorist actually think (sub consciously), "there is a cyclist with a helmet - I will pass closer to them as they are 'safe'".

[For the avoidance of doubt my children (and I) do where cycle helmets where they or I deem is appropriate. That judgement takes into account the terrain, traffic, speed, etc. Some people believe that balanced risk assessment is OK for kill cords too. Personally I think low speed manoeuvres are not without risk of going overboard and I would normally wear a kill cord then.]

What would we think of a motorcyclist without a helmet ?

Well I don't Sikh them out I believe there are some people who's religious convictions are strong enough to justify an increased risk. Is there a statistically higher mortality rate amongst Sikh bikers - or have you been conditioned to assume there is only one way to reduce risk? e.g. I would hazard a guess that very few "un-helmeted" riders are racing round country lanes...

We should make the wearing of kill cords compulsory without a doubt. .

your analogies fall over there because only 1 of the 3 is currently a legal requirements.

This will cause a problem for the RNLI though as they do not wear kill cords, they seem to be immune from coming out of boats ! I think not.

RNLI use their boats in a more extreme way than most yet I am only aware of one RNLI crew v's prop incident - that wasn't the helm so a kill cord would not have prevented. I've never heard a report of a 'runaway' RNLI boat either. Whilst runaway boats can happen at any size I think it is generally agreed that in skilled hands sensible power-size ratios reduce the risk. The RNLI boats aren't actually particularly overpowered.

Originally Posted by thomas

the world is a more dangerous place but technology means we can wear helmets without really noticing them

Is the world more dangeous? the laws of physics haven't changed - is it really just that the modern age means you hear about stuff your wouldn't have, people have more access to a wider range of risks and things (like disease and industrial accidents) that used to kill us younger are now less likely to...

Originally Posted by GJ0KYZ

Simply ghey.

Your argument may or may not have been valid but unfortunately the thinly veiled homophobic reference rendered the whole lot nonsense. If I remember correctly the last person who was rebuked for using it was a school boy - I had assumed 'grown ups' were able to construct a more rational basis for debate.

[wiLlfish]

Originally Posted by Poly

I've never heard a report of a 'runaway' RNLI boat either

Sum daiys arr beter thann uvvers faw berryin badd nooz

[shane a]

There is something else to consider here; I know of a RIB driver who was thrown from his boat in rough seas. He was wearing a kill cord. The problem was that his buddy was unable to start the motor to go to his aid. It nearly resulted in a drowning and a rescue.

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

Powerboat & RIB Magazine is campaigning for compulsory licensing for powerboat users, and for kill cords to be mandatory with fines imposed for anyone not complying.

Do you agree that following the incident at Padstow this weekend the time has come to bring in legislation? Or do you think the current system is sufficient?

There's a poll at the top of this thread. It's anonymous so please click on the option that you favour. Feel free to discuss the ramifications of either option, or if you feel I've left something out.

It closes in 7 days.

NOTE.WE ARE NOT ADVOCATING NOT WEARING KILLCORDS.THEY ARE AN ESSENTIAL PART OF SAFETY EQUIPMENT.
PLEASE DON'T WADE IN SAYING 'I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU LOT DON'T WANT TO USE THEM, THIS IS NOT THE CASE

[Leapy]

Originally Posted by shane a

There is something else to consider here; I know of a RIB driver who was thrown from his boat in rough seas. He was wearing a kill cord. The problem was that his buddy was unable to start the motor to go to his aid. It nearly resulted in a drowning and a rescue.

There are numerous references in this thread regarding how folks carry spare cords. There are also numerous solutions.

Choose your favourite

[frankc]

I ran Evinrudes for many years which had a spare kill cord fixture on the tiller handle. The problem was that many of my passengers did not have the foggiest idea how to remove it from the seat and place it on the kill switch. I instructed them, but by not normally running the motors, they were rusty to say the least and I did not trust them in a pinch to get the motor running. It was a concern to me as I did not want the boat heading for the horizon while in the drink or to have it stalled out too far away to re board it. I made sure the throttle friction was set low enough for the engine to decrease throttle whenever it was released.

Now that we have a Mercury, the kill switch is much easier for a newbie to learn to operate under stress which I appreciate.

There are factors which must be addressed in addition to a set rule as to when the kill switch must be used. I try to handle this by making my passengers aware of the use of the switch and how to restart the engine after a shutdown.

When alone in the boat, the kill cord is attached to me. If boating with my wife or grandchildren, I am more aware of the conditions and may not have it attached when actually fishing. You leave the helm to work with the lines and such, sometimes very suddenly. You have to use a measure of common sense in order to cover all the bases at times.

In our kayaks, my rule is that you cannot board one without actually wearing a flotation device. Life jackets are not worn on the motor boats except under certain conditions.

You cannot set a rule in concrete without knowing what the actual conditions of the trip are. You want to be on the safe side as much as possible, but there is more to consider than just the switch itself. Education is the key when all is said and done.

[Leapy]

Originally Posted by Water Merlin

Why not a proximity sensor for the dim people who are unable to locate the kill switch in a convenient position ?

If by proximity sensor you mean wireless kill cords, then these are already commercially available - see separate thread on killcords. They don't appear to be setting the market alight.

Having been involved in the development of many bluetooth/wireless devices aimed at convenience, my own opinion is that wireless protocols and the technology to deliver them have some stability, reliability and durability issues for a leisure marine application where safety is the overriding requirement.

A simple kill cord has few failure modes, and most of them are visible (not attached, broken cord etc). Redundancy, in the form of a spare cord, is also straightforward to provide for.

A wireless system has many more failure modes, many of them not obvious (flat battery, fob not in pocket, fob batteries fail at sea, circuit failure, salt corrosion, wireless interference etc).

[GJ0KYZ]

Originally Posted by Poly

Your argument may or may not have been valid but unfortunately the thinly veiled homophobic reference rendered the whole lot nonsense. If I remember correctly the last person who was rebuked for using it was a school boy - I had assumed 'grown ups' were able to construct a more rational basis for debate.

Poly, you need to wise up on your 'street' mate. Nowadays the term 'ghey' has nothing to do with being homosexual; hence my spelling to reiterate the point. And don't assume I'm grown up either. I did find your Sikh joke quite funny though.