Compulsory licensing and mandatory kill cords? What do you think?

[thomas]

Poly, yes it is, keep up. Without wanting to go off topic but a poorly fitted helmet is better than nothing at all and there are enough statistics to prove you are safer wearing one cycling. It's not physics it is life style and the fact there is not only more of us but we all have more cars and use the more, not to mention idiots on mobile phones. When people close to you die unnecessarily you views on these sorts if thing change, also as you get older and have kids so you want to stick around to see them grow up.

Anyhow, if you don't want to wear a helmet, a seatbelt or even I life jacket them that's up to you and of doesn't affect anyone but you, a kill cord is very different.

[Cookee]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

Fair comment that it did, however, I fail to see how getting the government involved in boating is going to end up in anything other than a mass of red tape and spiralling costs for 'administration'. See my post a few pages back.

I do agree, there's an awful lot of people on the water who are as dangerous as Jimmy Saville in a firework factory using child labour. However, legislation won't stop them. The sentiment is fine, but government has proved time and time again that all legislation does is hike costs for those who did it properly while those it's aimed at ignore it.


Asbo anyone?

Good post!

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

Ok....key point summary

• Thomas is a good guy who's giving away free killcord warning stickers,
• Very very few people don't want to wear killcords.
• Most forget every now and then and will try harder.
• Some have had a very nasty fright and will now wear them religiously.
  
• Cookee is special and has a very sexy fast boat with bondage straps so he's exempt
• Muppets are now arriving who aren't even reading the questions in the poll before voting.

Is that about right?

I'm famous!

[chris.moody]

Originally Posted by frankc

.
When alone in the boat, the kill cord is attached to me. If boating with my wife or grandchildren, I am more aware of the conditions and may not have it attached when actually fishing. You leave the helm to work with the lines and such, sometimes very suddenly. You have to use a measure of common sense in order to cover all the bases at times.

If you are distracted by another activity, for example fishing, I would have thought it made the kill cord even more important. Quite likely you could stumble in the boat and knock it into gear as you fell out

What the problem wearing the KC. If you leave the helm suddenly it just stops the engine, no big deal restarting it when you return to the helm.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by GJ0KYZ

Poly, you need to wise up on your 'street' mate. Nowadays the term 'ghey' has nothing to do with being homosexual; hence my spelling to reiterate the point.

I'm happy to debate the etymology of the term and whether changing the spelling of a term used in a derogatory manner makes it any less offensive. However you'll still be a bigg@.

Originally Posted by thomas

Poly, yes it is, keep up. Without wanting to go off topic but a poorly fitted helmet is better than nothing at all and there are enough statistics to prove you are safer wearing one cycling.

Happy for you to start a new thread with the statistics proving you are safer... ...and also that the world is more dangerous.

[SeaingRed]

Originally Posted by kerny

.
Doing the PB2 course did give me the basic understanding of driving a rib but I can't say that it made me a better driver... experience has done that.

Maybe I should have said "more confident and more aware of what could go wrong and how easy it is to prevent a situation"

[SeaingRed]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

Fair comment that it did, however, I fail to see how getting the government involved in boating is going to end up in anything other than a mass of red tape and spiralling costs for 'administration'. See my post a few pages back.

I do agree, there's an awful lot of people on the water who are as dangerous as Jimmy Saville in a firework factory using child labour. However, legislation won't stop them. The sentiment is fine, but government has proved time and time again that all legislation does is hike costs for those who did it properly while those it's aimed at ignore it.


Asbo anyone?

I'm not necessarily saying that the government get TOO involved, those of us who do it properly in the first place wont incur any greater cost. How about a bod from the harbour masters office, or marina or launch site checking for a qualification here and there when you launch. The word would soon spread, how about us lot who are responsible educating those who aren't? There must be a way of tightening up on the safety aspect of boating without any real inconvenience to the BOATING COMMUNITY!!

[SeaingRed]

NO QUALIFICATION, NO LAUNCH? How about that one?

Then if you kill yourself or someone else it really is down to your own stupidity, you've been as educated as you can be!

[HughN]

Originally Posted by SeaingRed

NO QUALIFICATION, NO LAUNCH? How about that one?

Then if you kill yourself or someone else it really is down to your own stupidity, you've been as educated as you can be!

I think that takes us full-circle to the proposal by PBR.

(I launch/recover from the beach where the boat sits - how would that work?)

[steco1958]

Originally Posted by SeaingRed

NO QUALIFICATION, NO LAUNCH? How about that one?

Then if you kill yourself or someone else it really is down to your own stupidity, you've been as educated as you can be!

How many slips are there in the UK ? need to check each license each time a launch takes place, this would have massive costs involved, unless the slips are closed and access to the sea is via organised club/marina slips.

Who said there would be no impact / cost to those of use doing it correctly ??

I am not for over regulation, I am for education, if the government get involved you know they will legislate and it wil become almost impossible to use your boat.

Steve

[IanH]

I'm an ex RYA sailing instructor, qualification long lapsed. When I was into sailing, teens, early 20's, getting qualified for sailing was a long hard slog. You had to progress through the qualifications, log the hours, learn, be tested and prove that you knew what you were doing, why you were doing and could repeatedly undertake the task time after time. Your qualification was endorsed as non tidal or tidal, so as most of my qualifications were non tidal, I had to do it all again for tidal.

These days, as far as I can see it, an RYA qualification is pretty much not worth the paper it is written on these days.

I'm returning to boating after a long absence. As well as my sailing qualifications, I am/was a qualified Sports and Rescue Boat Cox.

I looked into getting my qualifications updated and was surprised that I could get a PB2 qualification in a weekend. What is that all about? How many hours is one in control of a boat to come out qualified enough to take a high speed planing craft?

Is this certificate really proof of competency? Of course not. What gives competency is many hours of experience in different conditions, not a few hours with an instructor beside you.

Training/education is much more than a piece of paper at the end to prove that you have met a minimum basic standard, that for some may well have taken more than one go to achieve and in perfect conditions.

Reading manuals and books, taking note of manufacturers warning signs scattered throughout the boat or on outboard, learning local knowledge (I regularly drop by my local RNLI station for an informal chat on advice or local knowledge), gaining experience and instinct and being aware of actions and consequences is far more important than a piece of paper. But of course, a piece of paper is an easy 'tick box' and like many things in this world these days, ticking the right boxes counts for so much more than competence.

If people want to get an RYA qualification to boost their knowledge, then I'm all for that, but please do not treat it as an indication of competence.

[mister p]

I think we're arriving at a crucial stage here. The difference between education and regulation. Education can be in the form of qualification or instruction. It's whether or not this is enforced. This is the regulation bit.
If we enforce education but not anything else that leaves a huge hole re. boat safety. I mean the actual seaworthiness.
This will mean an regular safety check. Nothing wrong with that. Apart from cost.
If we maintain a high standard of self policing, as I believe already exists, then knee jerk politics can and should be avoided.

[SeaingRed]

Originally Posted by steco1958

How many slips are there in the UK ? need to check each license each time a launch takes place, this would have massive costs involved, unless the slips are closed and access to the sea is via organised club/marina slips.

Who said there would be no impact / cost to those of use doing it correctly ??

I am not for over regulation, I am for education, if the government get involved you know they will legislate and it wil become almost impossible to use your boat.

Steve

Every license every time would be out of the question, no one has their car license checked every time they go to drive. Police check those who, in their opinion, need checking. Spot checks and the like. And if WE as a Community keep up the Self Policing as mister p says, along with a check on qualification/license then I think we'll be closer to the goal of weeding out potential needless accidents.

[SeaingRed]

IanH, I agree with you that holding a piece of paper to say that you can is no way the end of all our problems, but its a start and a good way to give people that basic knowledge and confidence to go out and gain the experience safely. I was much more keen to learn more about boating and the areas where we go out after I'd done PB2, If you like it opened my eyes to how boating is more than just blasting about for a laugh with your mates then going home

[Meeko]

Hi John,
I've been boating with power boats since I was a kid of twelve and am now 64! The best thing that happened was kill switches and yes there should be encouragement to use them. Legislation means water police and who'll pay for it. Guess who? US. The govt already extracts excess money from us on the ROAD duty applied to fuel and we get zero in return. Also the cost at marinas is excessively high compared to road side fuel stations.
If you're launching or using a Marina then they can check if your insured. The difficulty is in open sea water where you've launched off a beach.Where I boat in the sea I can beach launch as the RIB is only 5.5 mts. On Loch Lomond which is inland and fresh water the boat needs to be registered and have insurance to be used. They are strict about a minimum of 2 in the boat, lifejackets for all, ideally marine radio, flares, speed within 150 mts of the shore limited to 5knts and use of kill switches. The Loch is patrolled and funded by the power boat users. It seems to work well. Anyone under 16 yrs must be supervised by a responsible adult (Hmmm if you can find one) and alcohol controlled.
As regards training.
1) All boats to have insurance
2) All coxes to have at least RYA PB2
3) No PB2 = No insurance so job done
4) No PB2 then no sale of a power boat.
Having said all that several years ago a crew were out for a jolly in a brand new £80K fast cruiser. At least on board were 2 experienced boat owners but in sail. They'd had lunch at Stonefield Castle Hotel and later on ramped the boat at full speed onto the rocks at the mouth of Tarbert harbour Loch Fyne. They boat was totally wreckedwrecked and I seem to recall that at least 2 died. The marks are still there 100 mts up the rocks
Sobering thought.
Regards,
Gordon

________________________________________
From: support@rib.net [support@rib.net] On Behalf Of rib@rib.net [rib@rib.net]
Sent: 09 May 2013 09:30
To: Meek Gordon (NHS Greater Glasgow & Clyde)
Subject: RIBnet update: Compulsory licensing and mandatory kill cords? What do you think?

Hi

As you are probably aware there was a serious incident last weekend with an out of control RIB which left two people dead and others seriously injured.

Powerboat & RIB Magazine is now campaigning for compulsory licensing for powerboat users, and for kill cords to be mandatory with fines imposed for anyone not complying.

Do you agree that the time has come to bring in legislation? Or do you think the current system is sufficient?

We are really interested to hear people's views and would appreciate your input. There is a simple poll where you can say which approach you think is appropriate, and you are welcome to use the poll thread to discuss the issues in more detail.

[steco1958]

Originally Posted by SeaingRed

Every license every time would be out of the question, no one has their car license checked every time they go to drive. Police check those who, in their opinion, need checking. Spot checks and the like. And if WE as a Community keep up the Self Policing as mister p says, along with a check on qualification/license then I think we'll be closer to the goal of weeding out potential needless accidents.

I hear what you say, but again, where is the funding going to come from for the spot checks, who will do these spot checks, and how much money will that take, as soon as you start looking at the option of checks of any sort, then money will have to be forked out, this in turn will cause other issues as it does with cars and un-insured drivers.

Steve

[Meeko]

Further to my last post, the Loch Fyne tragedy was July 2005 and was investigated by the MAIB. They concluded causes were due to
1) Alcohol
2)Fatigue
3)Inexperience especially in dark navigation by both helmsmen. Night navigation is part of level 4 PB (advanced power boat certification) and is not part of any level less. PB3 has day nav.
4)Excessive speed entering and unfamiliar harbour.
3 died and the survivors were seriously injured. The is still a report on the web site with BBC news for those interested Try Loch Fyne high speed accident Tarbert.

[PeterM]

Is pb2 an actual qualification or a course completion cert?..just being pedantic....

[SPR]

Originally Posted by PeterM

Is pb2 an actual qualification or a course completion cert?..just being pedantic....

it's a qualification ie you can fail it ...

[longjohn]

Originally Posted by PeterM

Is pb2 an actual qualification or a course completion cert?..just being pedantic....

Well I guess you can fail (rarely) - even if you do complete the course - does that make it a qualification?

PB2 is really all about slow speed boat handling with a smattering of navigation & MOB practice. There is precious little 'on the plane' experience, which does surprise me. Especially if its supposed to prepare you for RIBs.

[PeterM]

Originally Posted by SPR

it's a qualification ie you can fail it ...

I guess thats my point - 'IF' ( and its a big 'IF') legislation was introduced how can a standard (of say PB2) be used if you can't fail it ? A qualification should be pass/ fail - otherwise I'd have more A levels !!!

Would we comfortable with the guys at the controls of a 747 having completed an ' unable to fail ' course - or a surgeon ...or people driving cars, or a moped CBT course etc etc.?

I can see the reasoning behind wanting things to be safer but in my head the entire thing is a complete non-starter (hence why I'm not voting).

I'll get my coat