Compulsory licensing and mandatory kill cords? What do you think?

[frankc]

Everyone has centered their thinking on running at speed across the water. If fishing, the majority of the time is spent at slow speeds with lines out trolling. You don't shut off the engine when it is necessary for the helmsman to do other duties but change helmsmen sometimes often during the process. Shutting down the engine for even a short time often results in a nightmare of a line tangling situation.

You run to the fishing grounds at speed and then slow to fishing speed. A kill switch when running at speed is highly recommended, but it is in the way when actually fishing. A law which states that it must be used at all times would make no sense. You must use common sense rather than a blanket regulation.

Conversely, you should be educated enough to know when to attach the cord for safety. Sea conditions, speed, solo or with a companion, and other factors are weighed to make the proper choice for whatever is necessary.

If you use your craft for a high speed toy, wear a kill switch set up. You are in the same category as a jet ski under those conditions. If you use your boat for other reasons, then use judgement.

An incident of someone making a poor choice should not result in a rule which makes no sense. I see this whole thread as much hysteria about nothing. You would think that it is a common thing is to have unmanned boats with throttles full open running around your waterways. I tend to doubt that.

[DGR]

Originally Posted by PeterM

Is pb2 an actual qualification or a course completion cert?..just being pedantic....

I believe it's deemed a qualification - you used to be able to commercially endorse PB2 for Cat 6 operation - not sure if you still can?

I used to be a PBI - and we used to pack in as much as we could into a 2 day Level 2 course, not just the mandatory RYA content. We never failed anyone, but if we felt that the person was dangerous on the water, then I don't think we would pass them without extra time on the water to make sure that they weren't dangerous.

Having said that - this was in a yacht club based environment where we could arrange extra time on the water relatively easily, and not a commercial centre where people might expect to pay the money, attend a two day course and then walk away with the ticket.

On the other stuff - my first boat - 7.8m Ribcraft with a 315HP engine

Kill cord - hell yes - every time - but that's not to say that I haven't forgotten once or twice...

And for the proponents of spring loaded throttles - an exercise we did as part of our capsize drill on the D-Class was to jump over the side of the boat (with the engine off) on a calm day with a bit of a breeze. Sort yourself out - bouyancy of drysuit etc, and then get back to the boat. It's amazing how quickly a boat with 3 (fairly hefty) blokes will blow away from you in even relatively calm conditions - only made more difficult by swimming in a LJ. There is no way on the planet that you'd catch a boat on tickover.

[Rokraider]

Originally Posted by longjohn

Well I guess you can fail (rarely) - even if you do complete the course - does that make it a qualification?

PB2 is really all about slow speed boat handling with a smattering of navigation & MOB practice. There is precious little 'on the plane' experience, which does surprise me. Especially if its supposed to prepare you for RIBs.

My PBL2 course had a section that included high speed handling and waves. We spent a good 40 minutes in Hayling Bay at WOT a lot of the time. Sounds as though your instructor wasn't up to much?

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Meeko

On Loch Lomond which is inland and fresh water the boat needs to be registered and have insurance to be used. They are strict about a minimum of 2 in the boat, lifejackets for all, ideally marine radio, flares, speed within 150 mts of the shore limited to 5knts and use of kill switches. The Loch is patrolled and funded by the power boat users. It seems to work well. Anyone under 16 yrs must be supervised by a responsible adult (Hmmm if you can find one) and alcohol controlled.

Gordon - most of that is not true!

LL&TNPA Bylaws:

(1) DO require registration
(2) DO NOT require insurance
(3) DO NOT impose minimum no's of person on board
(4) DO require lifejackets to be carried - never actually had mine checked only asked if I had them (although we do put them on before launch so perhaps they question those afloat not wearing them)
(5) Never been asked about VHF or flares. For a long time (and possibly still now) the rangers did not have a VHF base station and so there was no listening watch.
(6) Supervision only required above 5HP
(7) Speed limit applies within most of the shore (and some other areas 'offshore') but NOT all of it.

Originally Posted by SeaingRed

And if WE as a Community keep up the Self Policing as mister p says, along with a check on qualification/license then I think we'll be closer to the goal of weeding out potential needless accidents.

So what are you suggesting a voluntary scheme where people could do some training and get a certificate of competence, perhaps run by a network of 'sea schools' and sailing clubs? Perhaps the certificate could actually be one of a series depending on the type of boating you plan to do. Maybe the top level could even lead to a route to commercial skippering? The "community" could encourage its members to join up to that scheme and get training etc.

Perhaps we could get a national organisation to run an informal scheme where people can get boat safety advice too. Nothing as formal as an MoT but helpful, relevant and appropriate advice - the sort of thing the local lifeboat crew might give you if they were to see your boat.

Originally Posted by longjohn

There is precious little 'on the plane' experience, which does surprise me. Especially if its supposed to prepare you for RIBs.

Sounds like you picked a bad centre for your needs. PB2 is broad and can cover a wide range of boat types.

Originally Posted by PeterM

I guess thats my point - 'IF' ( and its a big 'IF') legislation was introduced how can a standard (of say PB2) be used if you can't fail it ? A qualification should be pass/ fail - otherwise I'd have more A levels !!!

You CAN fail PB2. In reality most schools spend extra time with struggling candidates to get them through but, e.g. if you just went for the "direct assessment" (the "test" without the training) then you might well fail.

[ashbypower]

Originally Posted by PeterM

I guess thats my point - 'IF' ( and its a big 'IF') legislation was introduced how can a standard (of say PB2) be used if you can't fail it ?

Well we must be doing something wrong, failed a few over the years last one was only 3 weeks ago !!!

[Rokraider]

Originally Posted by ashbypower

Well we must be doing something wrong, failed a few over the years last one was only 3 weeks ago !!!

Sounds as though you are doing things right rather than wrong! Last thing we need are more incompetent people rocking up waving PBL2 certificates. We actually had some PBL2 drivers at the club who despite holding PBL2 licences, couldn't actually park the RIB on the pontoon!

[PeterM]

Originally Posted by ashbypower

Well we must be doing something wrong, failed a few over the years last one was only 3 weeks ago !!!

ah - buts that's why you run a respected school Brian ....but you did pass me ?

There are as we all know schools that seem to have you have attended (and most importantly paid) therefore you have passed approach.

[ashbypower]

Originally Posted by PeterM

but you did pass me ?

Ah but did we not endorse your Cert " Must not be left un supervised"

Thanks Pete... we have had some outright dangerous students over the years, that all the time they were drawing breath we would never pass !!!

[Dirk Diggler]

Many years ago, I was involved with building boats that were powered by Honda outboards, each boat/engine package came with a voucher from Honda for a days tuition with a very well respected RYA approved instructor.

All the instruction was given in our demo boat, which unfortunately suffered quite badly, mainly from slow speed collisions with pontoons, moored boats etc. None of this damage was done by the "students", but by the Instructor, who had every qualification going, but couldn't drive a boat to save his life!

The scarey thing is he was totally blind to his inability to close quarter manouvering, and his "high speed" driving was pretty shocking as well!

[SeaingRed]

Originally Posted by Poly

So what are you suggesting a voluntary scheme where people could do some training and get a certificate of competence, perhaps run by a network of 'sea schools' and sailing clubs? Perhaps the certificate could actually be one of a series depending on the type of boating you plan to do. Maybe the top level could even lead to a route to commercial skippering? The "community" could encourage its members to join up to that scheme and get training etc.

Perhaps we could get a national organisation to run an informal scheme where people can get boat safety advice too. Nothing as formal as an MoT but helpful, relevant and appropriate advice - the sort of thing the local lifeboat crew might give you if they were to see your boat.

Yes, I think this could be heading in the right direction. We are in a "community" of like minded individuals who are passionate aboat their bouts
Can anyone see a reason why we can't find a relatively simple solution to getting people qualified, educated and to be responsible whilst enjoying what we ALL enjoy? It needn't be over regulated or over priced, just more community spirit! Which is something the whole country lacks these days...What what!!

Just for the record, I did PB2 down in Poole, it was blowing a force 7 out at the entrance, which was fun and I learnt a fair bit about rough sea handling, then within the harbour where it was much more sheltered we spent a fair amount of time handling at 30knots plus.

Anyway, peace and love to all, lets get a "community" scheme running

[mister p]

"Community" is a horrible word that smacks of curtain twitching and Chinese whispers. However, I totally agree with you!!

[Poly]

Originally Posted by SeaingRed

Yes, I think this could be heading in the right direction. We are in a "community" of like minded individuals who are passionate aboat their bouts
Can anyone see a reason why we can't find a relatively simple solution to getting people qualified, educated and to be responsible whilst enjoying what we ALL enjoy? It needn't be over regulated or over priced, just more community spirit! Which is something the whole country lacks these days...What what!!

Just for the record, I did PB2 down in Poole, it was blowing a force 7 out at the entrance, which was fun and I learnt a fair bit about rough sea handling, then within the harbour where it was much more sheltered we spent a fair amount of time handling at 30knots plus.

Anyway, peace and love to all, lets get a "community" scheme running

Doh My two paragraphs were meant to describe the status quo... they were a little tongue in cheek reference to the RYA Powerboat training scheme and RNLI SeaCheck (or whatever it is called now). You appear to be trying to reinvent the wheel - which is not good because boats don't really need wheels!

[SeaingRed]

I know mate, but it could work. And anyway mister p, those who twitch curtains tend to sail!!

[SPR]

Maybe - this is the point so I state it for clarity:

RYA & RNLI both manage the community - no need to reinvent the wheel.

RYA provide courses and instructors with MCA input - remember on PB2 is a commercially endorsable Certificate.

RNLI provide sea safety advice to anybody that needs it - in a non-judgemental way.

Both - RYA & RNLI sit on committees that advise on safety issues - and represent the boating community in general. If you notice crutch straps are now bring provided by most life jackets manufacturers - this was due to RYA & RNLI pressure.

RIB net & the other site next door , provide community support - with cruises & day outs a place to ask for advice...

Educate not Legislate is key thing here.

If it is not broke don't fix -

You can't legislate for accidents by shear nature of what an accident is...

Edit: Poly best me to it !

RNLI Sea Check is now Advice on Board

[SeaingRed]

Is saying to people that if they want to go out on the water they must have an RYA qualification for the craft they are handling, too much regulation? Or is it ensuring that people are educated?

Going back to a previous post of mine I think that we should push a bit harder for people to take PB1 at least! Doing PB2 did me proud!

[paddlers]

The obvious point being missed by anyone suggesting legislation is that it won't stop !! My own line of work started with a voluntary test costing a few pounds run by the british deer society now a mandatory test costing hundreds added to each year just to do something that's been done for generations. So called leading lights now make rich pickings out of running courses and add to the 'qualifications' each year for extra money to get to the next level. Pointless, expensive & has done more to stop people taking up the hobby plus some of the 'experts are more dangerous than the novices. Please recognise that the ability to pass a test is NOT a sign of common sense !!!

[SeaingRed]

You'd soon jump up and down if one of your "nearest and dearest" was struck by a boat being driven by someone who just bought a boat, jumped in it and away to sea without any idea on how to control it, or that the KILL CORD is there to be worn, not just there to aid starting the engine.

Instead of saying "it'll never work, It'll never work" why don't we just TRY and come up with something that will.

I know some of you think that we are trying to "re-invent the wheel" here, but the wheel has been reinvented many times, and each time it has been improved!!

[Ian M]

Originally Posted by 250kts

Despite the weather today (Gale6/7) i was down on our RIB and took these pictures.

Pic 1, our primary Killcord attached to the dog collar
Pic 2, When leaving the boat for a short period you can leave comfortably on the leg
Pic 3, Or secure collar around the throttle(s), so that it is in your face when you want to be under way.
The use of the collar around the leg and clipping the KC to it, retains the original length. I can move to either side of our wide beam RIB with ease and not trigger the engines to cut out. By having a temporary mooring line near the consol, it is easy to come along side single handed.

I didn't understand your previous post, but now I see it, I like it. Pet shop here I come

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by SeaingRed

the wheel has been reinvented many times, and each time it has been improved!!

Should I point out at this stage that it's still round and still rotates?

SeaingRed. Do you REALLY think you can make the blindest bit of difference to

Originally Posted by SeaingRed

someone who just bought a boat, jumped in it and away to sea without any idea on how to control it, or that the KILL CORD is there to be worn,

by introducing hideously overcomplicated solutions that they'd be too stupid/reckless not to disable immediately anyway?

Make something foolproof and someone will breed a better fool.

[IanH]

Originally Posted by SeaingRed

You'd soon jump up and down if one of your "nearest and dearest" was struck by a boat being driven by someone who just bought a boat, jumped in it and away to sea without any idea on how to control it, or that the KILL CORD is there to be worn, not just there to aid starting the engine.

I have recently returned to boating after about 25 year break. For 15+ years prior to that I spent pretty much all my spare time 'mucking about' in sailing boats and much of it passing my experience on to others. I feel that I have a healthy respect for water and the sea.

Whilst a lot of that time was spent in, and as a qualified sports and rescue boat cox the latter arts in charge of, safety boats, I am now returning to pleasure motoring with a small inflatable and reasonably sized outboard.

As I have gained a health respect for water and the sea in my previous life, I now consider myself a novice in my new adventure.

I have been educated by others and educated myself in all things kill cord. When I collected my engine, my dealer reiterated the use of the kill cord, when I open the manual of my boat, I get safety advice including use of kill cord, when I look at transom of my boat, I get pictures telling me to use safety kit like life jackets and kill cords, when I open manual to my outboard, I get told to use kill cord, and even though the picture on my outboard does not show the use of the kill cord on the start/stop switch for its starting procedure, I am educated enough to know that I should use a kill cord to operate this.

I do not need any more education or pieces of paper to tell me or to prove to others that I need to use the kill cord even though I just bought a boat and I a couple of weeks I'm going to be wizzing (at max 6.5 knots) up and down a fast moving tidal river with a potential torrent of a river mouth.

What makes the difference between someone using a kill cord or taking excessive risk, and someone else who might not, is respect for the sea, intuition, awareness of cause and consequence, and remembering to use it. All of those things can be present in people who just bought a boat or are fully qualified. But they can be equally missing from the same group of people.

Yes. People need to be educated, but the education for the things that would have prevented the recent tragedy is already there, along with freely available local knowledge. What was sadly missing, was either respect for the sea, intuition, awareness of cause and consequence or just simply a brief moment of absentmindness which no matter how well trained we are, can happen to us all.

Hopefully some good will have come from the high profile publicity of this accident and it will have reiterated to others the cause and consequence of not wearing a kill cord.

As for me not doing PB2 before taking to the water. There are some things in life where you need to try before you buy. This year, we will be keeping to our known limits and have prepared for some unknowns. Had i needed to get formal training, we would have been one family to miss out on the joys of boating. Next year, if we like boating as a family, it will be PB1 and 2.