Compulsory licensing and mandatory kill cords? What do you think?

[wavelength]

if ya cant/wont enforce a law it its useless. You may enforce it in a busy area where the leisure traffic justifies deployment of assets...but everywhere isnt the Solent thank goodness. Yesterday came into this little port where we have been working for 5 years or so and the warm weather had brought the ******* idiots out! Miles of open empty and flat calm sea but a narrow harbour entrance and fast tides, every man and his son fishing and drifting in the channel and even anchored on the leading lights line. Loon on a jet ski cavorting about in amongst the now angry anglers and around us. Couple of illegal lobstering boats *****about and also dropping pot markers on the leading lights line. We come in through this chicane with 50tonne of fast aluminium catamaran at crawling speed so we dont sink the fools and then on top of all that we have an illegal pot boat (no name no numbers no licence no brain) insisting on trying to cross right under our bows from our port side . Five blasts on the horn ( like he will know the meaning of that apart from **** off ) but more likely the sudden realisation that he was about to die did make him turn away eventually. The port staff cant be bothered going out as they're not paid/trained or carry any authority for the aggro that they will get. So nobody is enforcing the local regulations and nobody would enforce any kill cord regs either.
Rant over - well for now anyway! Few tiny waves today so the brave little sailor boys have stayed ashore in case they feel sick!

[tonto]

Originally Posted by wavelength

if ya cant/wont enforce a law it its useless. You may enforce it in a busy area where the leisure traffic justifies deployment of assets...but everywhere isnt the Solent thank goodness. Yesterday came into this little port where we have been working for 5 years or so and the warm weather had brought the ******* idiots out!

The port staff cant be bothered going out as they're not paid/trained or carry any authority for the aggro that they will get. So nobody is enforcing the local regulations and nobody would enforce any kill cord regs either.

Which ever harbour you were in will have a Harbour Master, and he does have the authority to do something about the situation you describe.

Just because the HM is not bothered/cant be arsed to do something, does not mean that the situation should be accepted across the whole of the UK!

Police forces across the UK act in different ways, in the nearest local village no one enforces the double yellow lines, but it is not a reason to get rid of them cvountrywide.

If there were laws and regulations to require training and safety equipment, I am guessing it would pay for the HM overtime so he would go out on a Saturday and sort it out. Any law could empower the HM to take such action as he seems fit, up to reporting the offenders to the police. If a law was broken, then action could be taken.

The other alternative would be to serve offenders with fixed penalty notices, which council officers/workers have the power to do for littering etc at present, which would not require the intervention of the police, and could be easily set up to include giving HM, and deputies the authority to issue them.

I would have thought that after the pots were dragged up from the channel/leading lines and confiscated, that it would not be very long before the culprits did not do it any more. Pots are not so cheap that they can be thrown away like that!

[Lee argyle]

Had another amazing weekend on the water, spent Sat and Sun in and around Totland bay and Colwell bay in the western Solent. However………........when the suns out the muppets certainly come to play. There’s yellow safety marker buoys dotted along the coast line, inside/shore side as Im sure your all aware is a 10 knot speed limit ( its even written on the buoys ) – well that’s the theory. We watched numerous RIB’s, PWCs and hard boats, some towing toys completely disregard the speed limit inside the safety area, some craft on the plane only a stones throw from the beach. It goes without saying the shoreline was abundant with hundreds of people playing in the sea, some swimmer’s quite a distance from the shore. WTF!!!!
What happened to common sense and respect for other peoples safety!

I was also in the minority, myself and crew wearing life jackets and kill cord

[wavelength]

not really wishing to prolong this thread any further I would have to say that in the ports for eutopia and shangri-la the HM would go out and sort these things. However in the ports for Soddom and Gomora such niceties rarely occur. The staff arent paid, trained or have the academic capability for law enforcement. This place is a drinking town that happens to have a small port. Justice here usually involves having your car scratched, your tyres slashed or in extreme circs such as not paying your debts to the local moneylender a limb broken! Going rate is about £20 for someone to do the limb job apparently. The dock staff aint going to risk any of that by attempting to confiscate pots and I can't blame them. They do drag them out of the way but they will come back.
Fixed penalty tickets would be just the same.
A more relevant and easily enforced solution to part of the original incident I would suggest is to use the recreational craft directive to ban top mounted control levers with no neutral lock
ps dock has just been on the radio with regard to the weekends events-they will ask the HM for instructions after our 2 boats' complaints. We will see!!!

[biffer]

If we are going to go over the top we might as well ban top mounts on all the other hard boats, after all the sealine T 60 does nearly forty knots and will do a dam site more damage than a rib and you can fall off a fly bridge as easy as a rib.
I can't believe the amount of people who just go around looking for things to moan about, why not go over a tell them to put there kill cord on

[Nos4r2]

Coastkey discussion moved to here:-

http://www.rib.net/forum/f8/high-tec...ion-55292.html

[C2 RIBS]

During the last week working daily at Cowes Week aboard our 8.5m, I have seen and captured images of so many people using our type of boat with no regards to their or others safety , either on the same boat or others around them, some were charter RIBs on bareboat charter so I wonder what handover instructions were given.

The Police and MCA were about together as a joint approach but I have no idea if they were successful giving advice or stopping some behaviours. The Kill cord and Lifejacket non use was the biggest problem but overloaded RIBs daily plied back and forth and many at stupid speeds in rough seas. Last run last night towards Hamble saw a 6m go across the bow of the RedFunnel ferry and even my yacht crew aboard gasped how close they were and out of view of the captain. I caught up and the RIB had been used daily back and forth and were Island Sailing Club members (Cowes) happily displaying their club burgee, so probably not novices.

Then RNLI the other night

http://www.iwcp.co.uk/news/news/drun....aspx?mob=true

Maritime and Coastguard Agency Press Office: STORNOWAY COASTGUARD REMINDS BOAT USERS TO USE A KILL CORD

Maritime and Coastguard Agency Press Office: HUMBER COASTGUARD REMIND PUBLIC TO WEAR LIFEJACKETS


I have no idea if legislation or education would work now but these individuals are destroyng any good reputation of RIB users in the public eye and also in the media eyes. Everyone here appears to support action but it varies according to the cut of your cloth, but with the last week still spinning around something has to be done to stop the madness.

Failure will I am sure result in heavy legislation as media coverage increases

[tonto]

Looks like education aint working!

If the ploice and HM had the law behind them, they would not need to be out all day and all night.
Making it public via media, posters and information to sailing clubs, and information at slipways that there would be action taken for idiotic behaviour, and no safety gear, Kill cords etc and the word would soon spread.
A campaign to enforce such regulations would result in a number of people caught, and the word would soon spread, and discourage others from doing similar.

Also believe that the problem with drunken boaters could be addresed similarly as the US, take the car driving licence away if caught, and then see how many choose to do it! the punishment needs to be a deterrent.
there is not a traffic cop in sight 99% of the time I drive on the roads, but it does not make me think drink driving is safe or good, as I do not want a) and accident on my concience, and b) to loose my licence.

The current situation as described above should not be allowed to continue, and only can continue as long as there are no sanctions available to the authorities.
To everyone who campaigns against sanctions/regulations, you are supporting the madness described above.

[Solent Ranger]

Originally Posted by C2 RIBS

I have no idea if legislation or education would work now but these individuals are destroyng any good reputation of RIB users in the public eye and also in the media eyes. Everyone here appears to support action but it varies according to the cut of your cloth, but with the last week still spinning around something has to be done to stop the madness.

Failure will I am sure result in heavy legislation as media coverage increases

Cowes week brings out the worst in the boating community. I was teaching yesterday and yet again the number of ribs with the helms without kill cords on was staggering. Overloaded ribs abound, one rib came racing in on the outside of the channel into the Hamble yesterday fully loaded with people bouncing around on the tubes none wearing life jackets and the proceeded to cut in front of all those using the channel and leaving a huge wake. Another rib, ok the helm in this case did have the kill cord on, crossed from Hamble Point to the HM Pontoon straight across our bows as we came up river. Crewed by professional yacht crews. I felt like telling him he was not in a bloody yacht now. My student, was really put off by the closeness of the incident.

It is the same every year. It brings out the devil in folk

[C2 RIBS]

So as we know same every year and nothing changes , so what has to be done to change attitudes ? Heavy enforcement ? Most don't want that but we being afloat more than others do see the worst especially at big events but before more die either training has to be harder and cover even more on safety? Or governments get too involved and it won't take many more deaths/incidents for media to spark that one

[ShinyShoe]

If you can say with CERTAINTY that a COMPETITOR in an event has behaved inappropriately from the time of arrival at the event until departure from the event they are governed by the Racing Rules of Sailing. You would be within your rights to report the incident to the Race Organiser and if you genuinely believe they acted in a dangerous fashion with disregard to the safety of others you should ask them to investiagte under Rule 69 of the RRS.

Not wearing a lifejacket or kill cord is not going to be enough. Failure to follow the IPRCS and requiring you to take avoiding action possibly is.

They need to be competitors not spectators.

Whats your definition of overloaded? A 5.4 Sea rider is rated to 10 pax/crew I think that'd be cosy...

[Solent Ranger]

Originally Posted by C2 RIBS

So as we know same every year and nothing changes , so what has to be done to change attitudes ? Heavy enforcement ? Most don't want that but we being afloat more than others do see the worst especially at big events but before more die either training has to be harder and cover even more on safety? Or governments get too involved and it won't take many more deaths/incidents for media to spark that one

Ian, it is just complacency really. I have always stressed the importance of the kill cord. I make a point of demonstrating it on every course and even get the students to pull it themselves. I really don't know what the answer is, I have felt on several occasions of mentioning to people I see without the kill cord attached to their person and on the one occasion I did I was treated to Foxtrot Oscar and mind you fing business. Yesterday again there was a small inflatable heading up the Hamble with 8 people on it, all with beers in hand and no LJ's I passed the comment that I hope it didn't sink - more verbal abuse.

Perhaps it is time for the insurance companies to get harder. No kill cord or qualifications then no insurance or payout in the event of an incident. But as we well know, insurance is not mandatory unless operating from a marina.

[tonto]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

If you can say with CERTAINTY that a COMPETITOR in an event has behaved inappropriately from the time of arrival at the event until departure from the event they are governed by the Racing Rules of Sailing. You would be within your rights to report the incident to the Race Organiser and if you genuinely believe they acted in a dangerous fashion with disregard to the safety of others you should ask them to investiagte under Rule 69 of the RRS.

Not wearing a lifejacket or kill cord is not going to be enough. Failure to follow the IPRCS and requiring you to take avoiding action possibly is.

Who will do what????

They are even more toothless than the authorities are! plus they will investigate, How? CCTV?, Witnesses?

How many competitors are driving ribs/motorboats anyway?

As already mentioned, if there were more incidents, heaven forbid, then after the Padstow incident, there will likely be much more demand for action, and there will likely be a LOT more regulation than most here are willing to accept.

Of course all Ribnobbers are safe anyway, so I am preaching to the converted, but how do you get the message across to the other 95% of boaters of all flavours out there?

The HM, and police already have a set of rules that they can enforce, the Colregs apply to everyone, in every craft, (vessel) and can be prosecuted for failure to comply. A bit of a fudge, and not a very good way of doing things, but if there are no police or enforcement officers taking action, you will continue to see what you are currently seeing. it just human nature to get away with whatever you think you can.

[ShinyShoe]

@SolentRanger - one of the things I spend a lot of time at work doing, is trying to get my staff to look at how they challenge bad practice as well as challenging it. They would typically get responses like you get (perhaps with a little less FO as they are working with their "colleagues").

I don't know how you posed the question but if I take the two extremes we might see at work one person might pull up along side and say something like "You need to put your kill cord on before you kill someone..." We'd be suggesting they get a better response by pulling alongside and just saying "Sorry to bother you, wasn't sure if you'd realised you'd forgotten to attach your kill cord, I'm always forgetting to attach mine.." and then not entering into any further discussion unless they say "What that red dangly thing... dunno what I'm meant to do with that?"

Id still want the insurers to pay a 3rd party...?

[ShinyShoe]

Originally Posted by tonto

Who will do what????

They are even more toothless than the authorities are! plus they will investigate, How? CCTV?, Witnesses?

Rule 69 would result in a protest hearing. If they concluded that their behavior brought the event into disrepute (you guys seem to be suggesting that they are) then they have no choice but the penalise the boat's race result which could include disqualification. In addition all Rule 69 infringements are reportable to the RYA which could result in a boat being banned from all racing (like a drug infringement).

How many competitors are driving ribs/motorboats anyway?

No idea. Only working with the information others have posted...

Of course all Ribnobbers are safe anyway, so I am preaching to the converted, but how do you get the message across to the other 95% of boaters of all flavours out there?

Well event organisers have a responsibility for things like Cows Week. They don't want people getting minced up at their events - its not good publicity. There isn't exactly much said in the safety booklet about floatation devices and nothing about kill cords. Would be easy enough for them to add a section for tenders and such like. The RRS don't allow them to regulate the use of lifejackets except during the race (Race starts 10minutes before the gun - when the warning signal is issued).

[Poly]

Originally Posted by C2 RIBS

So as we know same every year and nothing changes , so what has to be done to change attitudes ? Heavy enforcement ? Most don't want that but we being afloat more than others do see the worst especially at big events but before more die either training has to be harder and cover even more on safety? Or governments get too involved and it won't take many more deaths/incidents for media to spark that one

Statistically Cowes Week is actually very safe. A huge number of people in a small area with very few serious incidents. I haven't looked at the data but I would guess that actually in terms of people needing hospital treatment at Cowes Week that they will actually come from yacht boom or mainsail block or fingers in winches/windlasses etc.

Originally Posted by solent ranger

Perhaps it is time for the insurance companies to get harder. No kill cord or qualifications then no insurance or payout in the event of an incident. But as we well know, insurance is not mandatory unless operating from a marina.

I'm never keen to give insurers extra reasons to weasel out of payments; especially since those payments are likely to be to 'innocent' third parties affected by the actions of a few stupid people. I would have no objection to mandatory 3rd party insurance (as per the roads), but even on the roads where the requirement has been in place for over 80 years, and all vehicles and drivers are uniquely registered it is far from clear that the system is particularly effective. It certainly wouldn't be a magic wand. In reality if the number (and value) of kill cord incidents or incompetent drivers was that high then insurers would already be offering huge price differentials which would encourage people to get trained etc.

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by tonto

Who will do what????

They are even more toothless than the authorities are! plus they will investigate, How? CCTV?, Witnesses?

The HM, and police already have a set of rules that they can enforce, the Colregs apply to everyone, in every craft, (vessel) and can be prosecuted for failure to comply. A bit of a fudge, and not a very good way of doing things, but if there are no police or enforcement officers taking action, you will continue to see what you are currently seeing. it just human nature to get away with whatever you think you can.

Ohh Humm! I'm going to regret this but here goes anyway:-

So what you're saying is that the current regs are ignored/flouted/un-enforced.. BUT you still advocate yet more regs & the introduction of compulsory kill cords/lifejackets/qualifications etc. Presumably the "Tonto Act: (the protection of knobheads at sea regulations 2014)" will also be ignored/flouted/un-enforceable I think the circle is now complete

[tonto]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

Ohh Humm! I'm going to regret this but here goes anyway:-

So what you're saying is that the current regs are ignored/flouted/un-enforced.. BUT you still advocate yet more regs & the introduction of compulsory kill cords/lifejackets/qualifications etc. Presumably the "Tonto Act: (the protection of knobheads at sea regulations 2014)" will also be ignored/flouted/un-enforceable I think the circle is now complete

There are no regs for kill cords or LJ, or anything other than Rules of the road to be followed, (I count only 1 reg, not multiple regs.) It seems like there is little incentive for anyone to do anything, as there is no penalty for spending money on safety equipment, or using it.
Last week you were suggesting in rather strong terms that someone take a VHF course, Why? because it could save your life (as well as being manditory) so why are you against having a requirement to use Kill cords or LJ's?, or being pissed
And the whole thing is about enforcement, without it, no amount of regs will actually solve anything, you end up with a bunch of idiots who dont care, as they want to do whatever they want, as there is nothing to tell them they must be responsible and act in a way that does not end up killing others. Sounds rather familiar to me

An example, I have been through Singapore straights and Dover straights many times. Singapore is a complete nightmare, very few people obay rules of the road or reporting procedures etc. English Channel, completely different, ships do what they are supposed to, follow ROR, report as they are required, and even fishing boats show correct light etc, why? because if you go through English channel, and dont follow the rules there WILL be police waiting for you when you dock at the next port. The large vessels are the same ones going through both places, with the same crews on, the only difference is the enforcement of the already in place rules.

Rules without enforcement are pointless. We end up in Pikey world!

people say enforcement is impossible, but why do people not (so often) break speed limits on the thames, and other places? because they know they are going to get pulled for it.

However looking at the stats above 80% want anarchy, and therefore should not moan when we do in fact, get the situation we find ourselves in!

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by tonto

Last week you were suggesting in rather strong terms that someone take a VHF course, Why? .........

Because he was going to get a VHF, simples. There's no requirement to carry a vhf, but if you do, then you need to know how to use it, which is a tad more involved than clipping on a killcord, if you cant work out how to use a killcord without an act of parliament.............
BTW who is going to pay for all this enforcement in this Marine Police State of yours? 3 guesses

[kerny]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

Because he was going to get a VHF, simples. There's no requirement to carry a vhf, but if you do, then you need to know how to use it, which is a tad more involved than clipping on a killcord, if you cant work out how to use a killcord without an act of parliament.............
BTW who is going to pay for all this enforcement in this Marine Police State of yours, 3 guesses