Compulsory licensing and mandatory kill cords? What do you think?

[tonto]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

Because he was going to get a VHF, simples. There's no requirement to carry a vhf, but if you do, then you need to know how to use it, which is a tad more involved than clipping on a killcord, if you cant work out how to use a killcord without an act of parliament.............
BTW who is going to pay for all this enforcement in this Marine Police State of yours, 3 guesses

All the numpties who break the rules and get fined, so of course if you are safe, use correct safety kit, as most people here seem to suggest they all do, all the time, then there is nothing to worry about.

Only those who are idiots, and act like them will be worried.

If having a few sensible rules turns us into a police state, have a look around, we have rules for everything else, and I dont see people complaining we have too many police officers, only criminal seem to do that

[kerny]

Originally Posted by tonto

only criminal seem to do that

and Pikeys

[tonto]

Having a few rules cant be all that bad, France has any number, and while probably too OTT, it does not stop a lot of people taking their boats there for holidays

Just out of curiosity, did you not post on a thread that you are there at the moment PD? must be hell to go on holiday to such a police state?

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by tonto

All the numpties who break the rules and get fined, so of course if you are safe, use correct safety kit, as most people here seem to suggest they all do, all the time, then there is nothing to worry about.

Only those who are idiots, and act like them will be worried.

If having a few sensible rules turns us into a police state, have a look around, we have rules for everything else, and I dont see people complaining we have too many police officers, only criminal seem to do that

So unless we have the idiots, we won't be able to pay for the enforcement, ergo, we need the idiots. You've obviously thought that one through The same applies to speed cameras, the authorities DON'T want us to stop speeding, otherwise their 10 grand speed cameras would be white elephants, if they were really serious about stopping speeding, they wouldn't fine us, they'd just take our licence away. The same would apply to your boating regs, it would become another "revenue stream" for the enforcing/licencing authority, which would probably be Capita

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by tonto

All the numpties who break the rules and get fined, so of course if you are safe, use correct safety kit, as most people here seem to suggest they all do, all the time, then there is nothing to worry about.

Just how much do you think it costs to run a fixed penalty fine through the system? It's not administered/issued for free!

[tonto]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

So unless we have the idiots, we won't be able to pay for the enforcement, ergo, we need the idiots. You've obviously thought that one through The same applies to speed cameras, the authorities DON'T want us to stop speeding, otherwise their 10 grand speed cameras would be white elephants, if they were really serious about stopping speeding, they wouldn't fine us, they'd just take our licence away. The same would apply to your boating regs, it would become another "revenue stream" for the enforcing/licencing authority, which would probably be Capita

It is clear from a number of posts on here we have already got the idiots, so we need this stopped, and when people behave responsibly, we wont need the enforcement as much, but there will be people who want to try to kill others, and that is why we need some enforcement to stop it.

You seem to think no rules, and asking people nicely will sort out the situation, or are you happy with the way things are now??

in your line of reasoning, we also dont need any drink driving laws, or any speed limits, or any laws at all, as they are all just a money generation scheme

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by tonto

Having a few rules cant be all that bad, France has any number, and while probably too OTT, it does not stop a lot of people taking their boats there for holidays

Just out of curiosity, did you not post on a thread that you are there at the moment PD? must be hell to go on holiday to such a police state?

Being a British registered vessel, the local French regs don't apply to me, but being a professional seaman, you'd know that If I was a French vessel, I'd be restricted to 6miles offshore, I'd have to carry lifejackets but not use them, I'd pay an annual boat tax, I would have to pass a mickey mouse test & apply for a licence, my boat would have compulsory registration & be obliged to display my number, all that just for starters, there's loads more.
Oh! & there's no legal requirement to use a killcord in France, in-fact my French mate thinks it's odd when I do, which I do do, de da da da.

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by tonto

It is clear from a number of posts on here we have already got the idiots, so we need this stopped, and when people behave responsibly, we wont need the enforcement as much, but there will be people who want to try to kill others, and that is why we need some enforcement to stop it.

You seem to think no rules, and asking people nicely will sort out the situation, or are you happy with the way things are now??

in your line of reasoning, we also dont need any drink driving laws, or any speed limits, or any laws at all, as they are all just a money generation scheme

If I drink & drive, I lose my licence, the fine is incidental & in the big scheme of things negligible.

[tonto]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

Being a British registered vessel, the local French regs don't apply to me, but being a professional seaman, you'd know that If I was a French vessel, I'd be restricted to 6miles offshore, I'd have to carry lifejackets but not use them, I'd pay an annual boat tax, I would have to pass a mickey mouse test & apply for a licence, my boat would have compulsory registration & be obliged to display my number, all that just for starters, there's loads more.

Being a professional seaman I also know that within territorial waters of a port state, you are required to obey their laws, just as we do when we go to ports. just because we are bahamian flagged, does not mean we can have a piss up in saudi!

I am not advocating going the same way, just a means to give HM the power to stop people being pissed, and requireing the use of LJ and kill cords. You make it sound like I want to have a whole raft of legislation, just i suspect, to make it sound scary and big brotherish!

[GJ0KYZ]

Originally Posted by kerny

and Pikeys

Dear oh dear...

[biffer]

I've never heard of anyone being done for using a VHF with a licence

[Wibs]

Originally Posted by biffer

I've never heard of anyone being done for using a VHF with a licence

I did mine early last year on the South Coast, but was told the people that were out and about enforcing it would be busy at the Olympics monitoring the Thames.

I was told to carry mine at all times this summer, but alas, not been checked yet...

[Poly]

Originally Posted by tonto

All the numpties who break the rules and get fined, so of course if you are safe, use correct safety kit, as most people here seem to suggest they all do, all the time, then there is nothing to worry about.

the reality is to enforce the rules you need a means to identify boats and skippers. That means licensing/registration and the associated costs. If that brings a real benefit I am not necessarily averse to that - but I can't see how its going to make my life better. And to top it off the likelihood is that the people who already boat responsibly will be the ones who comply with the admin/paperwork/costs but those who couldn't give a toss will disregard the rules.

Originally Posted by tonto

Having a few rules cant be all that bad, France has any number, and while probably too OTT, it does not stop a lot of people taking their boats there for holidays

do france not have accidents or idiots in boats then?

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

Just how much do you think it costs to run a fixed penalty fine through the system? It's not administered/issued for free!

And those who disregard the rules in the first place are also more likely to disregards the fines resulting in huge enforcement costs.

[John Kennett]

Originally Posted by tonto

I am not advocating going the same way, just a means to give HM the power to stop people being pissed, and requireing the use of LJ and kill cords. You make it sound like I want to have a whole raft of legislation, just i suspect, to make it sound scary and big brotherish!

We all want to boat in safety, but you seem to be in a fairly small minority who think legislation is the answer. Actually I don't think you've told us exactly what it is that you are campaigning for. Is it just alcohol, lifejacket and kill cord, or are you advocating compulsory training and a licensing system? Are there any conceivable new regulations that you wouldn't support?

The first three items could be dealt with relatively simply at a local level with bye laws or harbour orders if the powers that be consider them to be a sufficient problem. I think we should think very carefully about what we're trying to achieve though, and what the possible outcomes might be if we do get new legislation. Would you like to see more regulation like the 12 knot speed limit on the Thames? How about if that was extended to the Solent? It's all about safety after all, and if it saves one life then it must be worth it...

Compulsory registration or licensing opens up a whole load more interesting possibilities, including many that none of us might see coming. What level of qualifications should we require? L2 for inshore, then maybe require Advanced for anyone going out after dark or more than ten miles off shore? What misdemeanours would result in a disqualification?

How about if the rule makers decide that going offshore in small open boats isn't safe for instance? Where might that lead? Maybe we should all be required to have life rafts, AIS, radar?

So tell us more about what you propose, and how you think it might work in practise. You might just persuade a few people to join your side!

[tonto]

Originally Posted by John Kennett

We all want to boat in safety, but you seem to be in a fairly small minority who think legislation is the answer. Actually I don't think you've told us exactly what it is that you are campaigning for. Is it just alcohol, lifejacket and kill cord, or are you advocating compulsory training and a licensing system? Are there any conceivable new regulations that you wouldn't support?

The first three items could be dealt with relatively simply at a local level with bye laws or harbour orders if the powers that be consider them to be a sufficient problem. I think we should think very carefully about what we're trying to achieve though, and what the possible outcomes might be if we do get new legislation. Would you like to see more regulation like the 12 knot speed limit on the Thames? How about if that was extended to the Solent? It's all about safety after all, and if it saves one life then it must be worth it...

Compulsory registration or licensing opens up a whole load more interesting possibilities, including many that none of us might see coming. What level of qualifications should we require? L2 for inshore, then maybe require Advanced for anyone going out after dark or more than ten miles off shore? What misdemeanours would result in a disqualification?

How about if the rule makers decide that going offshore in small open boats isn't safe for instance? Where might that lead? Maybe we should all be required to have life rafts, AIS, radar?

So tell us more about what you propose, and how you think it might work in practise. You might just persuade a few people to join your side!

In response to your above questions, I am proposing a few measures to help to address the situations described by a few posts recently, where people have expressed concern about behaviour at Cowes week, for example, and also there are 2 very recent posts with people expressing concern about drunken ribbers, and there will be many more other than those reported.

I seem to be in the minority of people who would wish to see the current situation change, so can only assume that by default the majority of the forum are happy with the situation as they do not want any change to what we have at present. It is plainly obvious to see that education does not seem to be working, it does not work in the rest of the UK, that is why we have regulations covering other aspects of our everyday lives, but I do not hear people arguing for relaxation of traffic laws, etc etc.

There have been a number of incidents where the MCA have carried out incident investigations, and criticised the current system of bye laws, as pretty much unenforcable, which basically means a HM has little chance of effectively stopping someone from doing as they please, such as being pissed on a boat, even if there is a bye law against it, which in a number of places there is, so I am proposing a regulation that allows a HM, or local authorities to actually be able to sanction someone breaking the bye laws. If that cannot be done, a national law might be required.

The local bye laws could include the requirement to carry and wear a lifejacket, used a Kill cord, and not to be over the legal drink drive alchol limit.

As for compulsory training, a PBL level 1, or a basic safety training course could be required, but I already hear cries of "how much is this going to cost???"to use a recent quote by one of the recent persons who does not want to see regulation or training, "If you are going to be unhappy about spending 70 quid (or so) on basic safety training, then taking up boating is probably not for you, take up knitting or something" not an exact quote but you get the idea.

Many people use slips that require the payment of a fee, during this payment process a memebr of the HM staff could check the correct licence is held by one of the persons on board, and also make a quick visual check of the L.jackets and if they actually have a kill cord. Hardly a draconian police state really. If any regs were broken then the authorities can take the licence plate of the launching car, and report the matter to the police for further action, IF necessary. If people are apparently drunk, then the police could be called.

I realise that this does not cover people who launch from beaches, or moorings, but a responsible marina could require that users have L.jackets, and kill cords before allowing the marina use. Many moorings are controlled by the local authorities, who could ask that the L.jackets and Kill Cords are owned before agreeing to them being rented.

No compliance could result in the boat being asked to leave, and not use the facilities.

At present there are marine police patrols in the Thames, (I believe) and in areas where there is percieved to be a problem either mobile units could be established, (visiting diffent areas rotationaly) or HM could be tasked with enforcing local regs, (or national ones), and this may be one way to enforce regulations, but there may well be others, I do not have all the answers, but it a suggestion.

I would not, and do not want, any restrictions placed on people about where/when they go, how far they go etc etc, and do not want to have a police state as is often suggested, the spectre of that is brought up to scare people into not wishing the status quo to change.

I dont propose national registration requirements, but am not against it. I have my rib entered on the SSR, and would not be against putting the numbers on the side, and can only assume those who would not wish to would be those with something to hide, but as I have said I am not proposing compulsory registration. The 25 pound fee (IIRC) is not a huge amount, about a days fuel in a sib, I would suggest, and about an hours worth in my rib!

However I see no reason to have compulsory registration, as if you are asked for your name and address by an officer in this country, you are legaly obliged to give it. People dont need to carry ID or registration cards, so boats should not need it either, and lack of it should not stop authorities taking action.

Finally to all those who do not want to have any changes, I suggest you come up with a detailed plan how to educate people, and change the current situation, as I can forsee in the next few years there will be a rather draconian reaction if there are more incidents where people are drunk or killed by not using safety equipment.

At present it seems that people in support of some moderate regs are having to justify ourselves, and asked to suggest plans, but the rest of the forum just says "education not regulation" so come on, I have given my views, lets hear your suggestions, because the alternative may well be French style regulations, and then you will all REALLY have something to moan about.

[thomas]

I believe you can be done for driving a bout under the influence, I remember someone being prosecuted for being drunk in charge of a small power boat off Selsea a few years back.

Once you start watching it;s a bit of an eye opener, I went over to Cowes from Chichester on Saturday and did not see one kill cord attached to the skipper and I guess half had some of the passengers in life jackets.

So I guess less than 25% bother about safety precautions yet the amount of serious incidents in the UK is two or three a year, with figures like that I cant see any incentive for the authorities to do anything, far more die crashing planes and they're subject to every kind of rule and regulation you can think of - doesn't stop idiots flying though.

[C2 RIBS]

Well said Tonto. numerous RYA schools train boaters yet afterwards as with the road driving tests most is forgotten but their are laws to deal with the problems this causes.

The RYA will not support legislation as far as I see so without their input this would be a lost cause. They are happy to have schools under their banner training very well and mostly to a very high standard but then it stops with no way of dealing with future problems caused by ignoring training and advice given.

I have a general view that this forum attracts good, honest boaters who want to invest in the industry and sport whilst having great fun. The trouble is beyond this area others will ignore anything training if they decide to actually take a training course.

I accept that Cowes week attracts everyone at all levels. If we ignore the RIB sector and just look at yesterdays Fastnet race start there were many cruisers ignoring training and advice and hammering through yacht race start areas and creating huge wakes for yachts and RIBs to manage. During those conditions the police were out leading the pack ( so to speak) ahead of the multi hulls with blue lights blazing BUT not once did they speak to or advice anyone on their behaviours. I was also out front with crews watching the multi Hulls and all I saw was them taking some nice piccies. I hope they read this and can tell all of us they actually did deal with problems. But if this was a good time to deal then what would they have done if there was actually legislation beyond our rules we presently have and are seldom enforced.

As I said previously, our RIB community have identified they do not want legislation but if nothing changes and the Media with programmes/stories about death and injury keep appearing someone will introduce more rules and ruin the day for most. That is the area that most seem to forget

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by tonto

In response to your above questions, I am proposing a few measures to help to address the situations described by a few posts recently, where people have expressed concern about behaviour at Cowes week, for example, and also there are 2 very recent posts with people expressing concern about drunken ribbers, and there will be many more other than those reported.

I seem to be in the minority of people who would wish to see the current situation change, so can only assume that by default the majority of the forum are happy with the situation as they do not want any change to what we have at present. It is plainly obvious to see that education does not seem to be working, it does not work in the rest of the UK, that is why we have regulations covering other aspects of our everyday lives, but I do not hear people arguing for relaxation of traffic laws, etc etc.

There have been a number of incidents where the MCA have carried out incident investigations, and criticised the current system of bye laws, as pretty much unenforcable, which basically means a HM has little chance of effectively stopping someone from doing as they please, such as being pissed on a boat, even if there is a bye law against it, which in a number of places there is, so I am proposing a regulation that allows a HM, or local authorities to actually be able to sanction someone breaking the bye laws. If that cannot be done, a national law might be required.

The local bye laws could include the requirement to carry and wear a lifejacket, used a Kill cord, and not to be over the legal drink drive alchol limit.

As for compulsory training, a PBL level 1, or a basic safety training course could be required, but I already hear cries of "how much is this going to cost???"to use a recent quote by one of the recent persons who does not want to see regulation or training, "If you are going to be unhappy about spending 70 quid (or so) on basic safety training, then taking up boating is probably not for you, take up knitting or something" not an exact quote but you get the idea.

Many people use slips that require the payment of a fee, during this payment process a memebr of the HM staff could check the correct licence is held by one of the persons on board, and also make a quick visual check of the L.jackets and if they actually have a kill cord. Hardly a draconian police state really. If any regs were broken then the authorities can take the licence plate of the launching car, and report the matter to the police for further action, IF necessary. If people are apparently drunk, then the police could be called.

I realise that this does not cover people who launch from beaches, or moorings, but a responsible marina could require that users have L.jackets, and kill cords before allowing the marina use. Many moorings are controlled by the local authorities, who could ask that the L.jackets and Kill Cords are owned before agreeing to them being rented.

No compliance could result in the boat being asked to leave, and not use the facilities.

At present there are marine police patrols in the Thames, (I believe) and in areas where there is percieved to be a problem either mobile units could be established, (visiting diffent areas rotationaly) or HM could be tasked with enforcing local regs, (or national ones), and this may be one way to enforce regulations, but there may well be others, I do not have all the answers, but it a suggestion.

I would not, and do not want, any restrictions placed on people about where/when they go, how far they go etc etc, and do not want to have a police state as is often suggested, the spectre of that is brought up to scare people into not wishing the status quo to change.

I dont propose national registration requirements, but am not against it. I have my rib entered on the SSR, and would not be against putting the numbers on the side, and can only assume those who would not wish to would be those with something to hide, but as I have said I am not proposing compulsory registration. The 25 pound fee (IIRC) is not a huge amount, about a days fuel in a sib, I would suggest, and about an hours worth in my rib!

However I see no reason to have compulsory registration, as if you are asked for your name and address by an officer in this country, you are legaly obliged to give it. People dont need to carry ID or registration cards, so boats should not need it either, and lack of it should not stop authorities taking action.

Finally to all those who do not want to have any changes, I suggest you come up with a detailed plan how to educate people, and change the current situation, as I can forsee in the next few years there will be a rather draconian reaction if there are more incidents where people are drunk or killed by not using safety equipment.

At present it seems that people in support of some moderate regs are having to justify ourselves, and asked to suggest plans, but the rest of the forum just says "education not regulation" so come on, I have given my views, lets hear your suggestions, because the alternative may well be French style regulations, and then you will all REALLY have something to moan about.

Sledge hammer to crack a nut, the country's is going to hell in a handcart, public services & the economy are crumbling & you expect Parliament to spend time solving a problem that exists largely in the bee in your bonnet. Parliament has its hands full sorting out more pressing matters like Gay marriage to bugger about with this trivia. At the end of the day, people die, we all do, if a few people die because they don't wear this that or the other, so be it, plenty more where we come from.

Just to test your argument; so I arrive at the slip/marina/harbour, present my killcord/lifejacket/qualification to the little jumped up jobsworth on the slip & he deems me fit to launch, I launch my boat, anchor up, take off my lifejacket/killcord, have a beer or two with my lunch, who now checks/enforces that I've put on my killcord/lifejacket/clean undies & am fit to continue?

[ShinyShoe]

Originally Posted by tonto

Hardly a draconian police state really. If any regs were broken then the authorities can take the licence plate of the launching car, and report the matter to the police for further action, IF necessary. If people are apparently drunk, then the police could be called.

So the criteria for the rule applying is the launcher has a car registration. So if you leave your boat on a mooring or marina you are exempt? If you can launch without a car (sib? canoe? windsurfer?) you don't need to comply?

Pretty sure the incident that started this whole topic off would have been afloat already.

Whats more they had lifejackets on and had a KC it just was not worn AT THE TIME OF THE ACCIDENT. A HM would have seen it and not reported them. From what we know its possible it was in use prior to the accident but taken off during a helm change. So the regulation wouldn't have made any difference... AFAIK they were wearing lifejackets, but the best the marina would have managed was to check they had lifejackets at the start of season. Some people don't like leaving things like this in lockers so take them home. What if they forget to bring it?

How would the police handle this? Do they stake out the slipway and await your return? Do they clamp your car? Or do they turn up at the registered keeper of the car's address the following day(s)? Yes officer that was me launching at such and such a slipway. Yes officer I have a kill cord and of course I was using it. Yes officer I have life jackets... Now be on your way officer unless you have some evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that I didn't have all that...

Its like turning up at someone's house tommorrow to ask if they wore their seatbelt when they nipped round to the shop yesterday. Unless the car doesn't have a seatbelt installed? And even then I'd be stood in couirt saying it did when I went to the shop I removed it after that... Oh and the same for my life jacket I had one but I think I left it on the beach by accident when I came ashore.

And how would you police the WAFIs who sail into a harbour and then come ashore by SIB with no life jacket?

HM could be tasked with enforcing local regs, (or national ones), and this may be one way to enforce regulations, but there may well be others, I do not have all the answers, but it a suggestion.

The HM who covers my local port has at least 15 miles of river to police. I've seen their launch ONCE in 6 years.

I dont propose national registration requirements, but am not against it. I have my rib entered on the SSR, and would not be against putting the numbers on the side, and can only assume those who would not wish to would be those with something to hide, but as I have said I am not proposing compulsory registration. The 25 pound fee (IIRC) is not a huge amount, about a days fuel in a sib, I would suggest, and about an hours worth in my rib!

But would you regsiter your canoe? Or a windsurf? A sib thats a tender to a yacht?

However I see no reason to have compulsory registration, as if you are asked for your name and address by an officer in this country, you are legaly obliged to give it. People dont need to carry ID or registration cards, so boats should not need it either, and lack of it should not stop authorities taking action.

OK so if I'm stopped in my Car and say my name is John Kennett and give John's address (I'm sure I could find it and memorise it). They will ask if I'm the registered keeper of my car. If not they will ask lots of questions about Mr Kennett's insurance, and while I'm not obliged to carry ID to prove that I'm John Kennett they will take me to a police station if they don't think I am. So now I'm out on my boat - big rib with flashy blue light comes alongside and wants to issue me with a fixed penalty cause I forgot to attach my kill cord. Yes officer - my name is "John Kennett" etc etc... No sorry I don't have any ID on me - find the water doesn't do them any good so I just leave them at home when I'm out on the boat... so they either believe me or end up 'arresting' me and taking me to a police station. Pretty certain that means they'll be off the water most of the day while they accompany my boat ashore etc.

[tonto]

Originally Posted by thomas

I believe you can be done for driving a bout under the influence, I remember someone being prosecuted for being drunk in charge of a small power boat off Selsea a few years back.

Once you start watching it;s a bit of an eye opener, I went over to Cowes from Chichester on Saturday and did not see one kill cord attached to the skipper and I guess half had some of the passengers in life jackets.

So I guess less than 25% bother about safety precautions yet the amount of serious incidents in the UK is two or three a year, with figures like that I cant see any incentive for the authorities to do anything, far more die crashing planes and they're subject to every kind of rule and regulation you can think of - doesn't stop idiots flying though.

There are bye laws, but as pointed out by the MCA there is very little chance of getting a conviction. There was the guy who crashed his rib into a ferry in the Thames, but the amount of convictions are few and far between, due to there being no national law.

As for the number of people killed. The last numbers I saw were quoted in a MIAB report, and said that 45 people (IIRC) in 5 years previous were killed in lesiure accidents where alcohol was involved, which the MAIB had investigated. There were no numbers for the amount of people who were injured, or needed rescuing. And that was just due to alcohol.
Ask the RNLI how many people they save each year??????? admittedly a very large number are not boaters, but an awful lot are.....

I really dont care if someone wants to kill themselves (except I do have a lot of sympathy for those who have to clear up the mess) but in doing so they tend to kill/maim/injure others as well. There have been enough reports in the press recently to highlight my point.

So on Cowes week not a single skipper was seen with a Kill Cord, and 50% of passengers without Lifejackets? Looks like education just aint working to me