Compulsory licensing and mandatory kill cords? What do you think?

[Al Baker]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

Sledge hammer to crack a nut, the country's is going to hell in a handcart, public services & the economy are crumbling & you expect Parliament to spend time solving a problem that exists largely in the bee in your bonnet. Parliament has its hands full sorting out more pressing matters like Gay marriage to bugger about with this trivia. At the end of the day, people die, we all do, if a few people die because they don't wear this that or the other, so be it, plenty more where we come from.

Just to test your argument; so I arrive at the slip/marina/harbour, present my killcord/lifejacket/qualification to the little jumped up jobsworth on the slip & he deems me fit to launch, I launch my boat, anchor up, take off my lifejacket/killcord, have a beer or two with my lunch, who now checks/enforces that I've put on my killcord/lifejacket/clean undies & am fit to continue?

I agree wholeheartedly. Why bother meddling with other people's enjoyment of boating, why not just get on with your own enjoyment?

[tonto]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

Sledge hammer to crack a nut, the country's is going to hell in a handcart, public services & the economy are crumbling & you expect Parliament to spend time solving a problem that exists largely in the bee in your bonnet. Parliament has its hands full sorting out more pressing matters like Gay marriage to bugger about with this trivia. At the end of the day, people die, we all do, if a few people die because they don't wear this that or the other, so be it, plenty more where we come from.

Just to test your argument; so I arrive at the slip/marina/harbour, present my killcord/lifejacket/qualification to the little jumped up jobsworth on the slip & he deems me fit to launch, I launch my boat, anchor up, take off my lifejacket/killcord, have a beer or two with my lunch, who now checks/enforces that I've put on my killcord/lifejacket/clean undies & am fit to continue?

And in testing your argument, I turn up in my car, no rules, no laws, drink a load of beer, blast out through the harbour, cos there is no laws against it, and I can do what i like, end up ramming a nice family who are out in thier boat/craft, whatever, wearing lifejackets with kill cord on, and all fully trained, but manage to kill them all anyway.

But thats alright cos there is nothing to say I shouldnt, apart from the fact it is wrong, but then after a few beers it is well known peoples reasoning skills, and thought processes are not working, but hey as we have (virtually) no laws to prevent it, that is tantamount to condoning it.

Lovely idea

It would be good if there are some constructive ideas on the alternative other than picking holes in suggestions I have made,

Come on, use some of the energy to suggest something positive?? I dare you???
Other than do nothing of course

[ShinyShoe]

Originally Posted by tonto

So on Cowes week not a single skipper was seen with a Kill Cord, and 50% of passengers without Lifejackets? Looks like education just aint working to me

What education? I'd suggest that Aberdeen Asset Management might want to improve their paperwork for crews. Posters etc at all slips for spectators.

The sample of 0% KC use is a bit flawed since the reporter of that was presumably wearing a KC and so if I'd stood on the shore and done the counting I'd have counted him and so it wouldn't have been 0%. As there were several rib nobbers out I'd have thought the sample is not right. In addition the quote makes it sound like thats for the WHOLE WEEK - nothing like sensationalising. But a low uptake is a concern but hard to say education doesn't work if you cant tell me what education was done...

I'd rather see AAM/Cowes Week Ltd pick this up and try and support a local education campaign. So 2 months before the even when they are sharing their supporter information they empasise the Wear Your KC and Useless unless Worn campaign from the RNLI. They include stuff in the skipper packs that makes reference to supoort boats and tenders as well and they mention it at every skipper briefing. Then posters/fliers at every strategic slipway for Cowes Week. Even a banner add or two on the water near the start areas etc. THAT is EDUCATION.

[ShinyShoe]

Originally Posted by tonto

And in testing your argument, I turn up in my car, no rules, no laws, drink a load of beer, blast out through the harbour, cos there is no laws against it, and I can do what i like, end up ramming a nice family who are out in thier boat/craft, whatever, wearing lifejackets with kill cord on, and all fully trained, but manage to kill them all anyway.

So tell me why you wouldn't be prosecuted for "Manslaughter by Gross Negligence"?

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

So tell me why you wouldn't be prosecuted for "Manslaughter by Gross Negligence"?

+1
Time to invoke #2 & #3 methinks, I knew I'd regret jumping in, that'll teach me Got to go, fish are waiting to be caught

[tonto]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

What education? I'd suggest that Aberdeen Asset Management might want to improve their paperwork for crews. Posters etc at all slips for spectators.

The sample of 0% KC use is a bit flawed since the reporter of that was presumably wearing a KC and so if I'd stood on the shore and done the counting I'd have counted him and so it wouldn't have been 0%. As there were several rib nobbers out I'd have thought the sample is not right. In addition the quote makes it sound like thats for the WHOLE WEEK - nothing like sensationalising. But a low uptake is a concern but hard to say education doesn't work if you cant tell me what education was done...

I'd rather see AAM/Cowes Week Ltd pick this up and try and support a local education campaign. So 2 months before the even when they are sharing their supporter information they empasise the Wear Your KC and Useless unless Worn campaign from the RNLI. They include stuff in the skipper packs that makes reference to supoort boats and tenders as well and they mention it at every skipper briefing. Then posters/fliers at every strategic slipway for Cowes Week. Even a banner add or two on the water near the start areas etc. THAT is EDUCATION.

Ok the sample of 0% maybe flawed, but come on, even if only 10% (which would all be ribnobbers I am sure) were wearing the Kill cord, it is still too little, and only 50% lifejackets? there is already posters by the RNI about lifejacket use, and these are posted at various slips.

The measures you mention above seem to be only aimed at Cowes and people who are goin to attend. Why limit it to 2 months before Cowes? what about the rest of the country? or is there nothing beyond Cowes/Solent?

I dont go to Cowes, so how do I get a skipper pack? and who is going to give me my skipper briefing?

The slips where I launch have a whole bunch of signs about wearing lifejackets, Kill cords etc etc, but it does not seem to work. So there is education that you mention, you need to look around and open your eyes to see it. It is just not working!

[tonto]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

+1
Time to invoke #2 & #3 methinks, I knew I'd regret jumping in, that'll teach me Got to go, fish are waiting to be caught

I must admit, I was thinking this earlier, that you are breaking your own rule 2 and 3.........

[tonto]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

So tell me why you wouldn't be prosecuted for "Manslaughter by Gross Negligence"?

So tell me why there are laws against drink driving? flying while drunk? etc etc same difference. Lets not have any of those troublesome laws, and just use the manslaughter rules............

I will tell you why, they are there to try to PREVENT it, not to deal with the consequences.

[biffer]

[QUOTE="tonto;562264"]

There are bye laws, but as pointed out by the MCA there is very little chance of getting a conviction. There was the guy who crashed his rib into a ferry in the Thames, but the amount of convictions are few and far between, due to there being no national law.

As for the number of people killed. The last numbers I saw were quoted in a MIAB report, and said that 45 people (IIRC) in 5 years previous were killed in lesiure accidents where alcohol was involved, which the MAIB had investigated. There were no numbers for the amount of people who were injured, or needed rescuing. And that was just due to alcohol.

You should read them reports more carefully, MIAB have a tendency to generalise events and wording to make there reports more sensational, you might find that a guy died in a drunken stupor on a pontoon, to them that is marine related, didn't matter he was fishing.
I've got enough regulation in my life and I don't want no more, my old dad said rules are just guidelines, that's good enough for me

[C2 RIBS]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

What education? I'd suggest that Aberdeen Asset Management might want to improve their paperwork for crews. Posters etc at all slips for spectators.

The sample of 0% KC use is a bit flawed since the reporter of that was presumably wearing a KC and so if I'd stood on the shore and done the counting I'd have counted him and so it wouldn't have been 0%. As there were several rib nobbers out I'd have thought the sample is not right. In addition the quote makes it sound like thats for the WHOLE WEEK - nothing like sensationalising. But a low uptake is a concern but hard to say education doesn't work if you cant tell me what education was done...

I'd rather see AAM/Cowes Week Ltd pick this up and try and support a local education campaign. So 2 months before the even when they are sharing their supporter information they empasise the Wear Your KC and Useless unless Worn campaign from the RNLI. They include stuff in the skipper packs that makes reference to supoort boats and tenders as well and they mention it at every skipper briefing. Then posters/fliers at every strategic slipway for Cowes Week. Even a banner add or two on the water near the start areas etc. THAT is EDUCATION.

Just to clear up this, NONE of the professional crews working for AAM Cowes week was seen breaking any rules/ SAFETY ISSUES. These were spectators and volunteers running crews about and people with RIBs not the people employed.

[kerny]

There is an old saying that comes to mind..... two heads are better than one...... 79% in this instance

Nuff said.

[tonto]

[QUOTE=biffer;562284]

Originally Posted by tonto

You should read them reports more carefully, MIAB have a tendency to generalise events and wording to make there reports more sensational, you might find that a guy died in a drunken stupor on a pontoon, to them that is marine related, didn't matter he was fishing.
I've got enough regulation in my life and I don't want no more, my old dad said rules are just guidelines, that's good enough for me

The figures I qouted were the only ones I could find, and did not detail what had been investigated, or what the person was doing, however please feel free to enlighten me with any other up to date official figures!

There was however a comment that there were many more times the amount which were not reported to the MAIB, or resulted in injuries/rescues.

I do however not agree that the MAIB sensationalizes the reports, just as they do not apportion blame, or liability.

As I said, ask the RNLI how many people they help each year who dont have safety equipment etc etc. I would suspect the number is more than a handful?

We would not need rules if people behaved responsibly, just tell me how to get people to behave in a responsible manner, and I will campaign to get rid of a whole bunch of laws

[biffer]

We could all campaign for a better life on the water but the more intelligent ones have realised that they are flogging a dead horse, and haven't got that amount of free time to mount such a crusade.
On the MIAB front there was a guy a few years back who got hold of one of these reports and investigated them more thoroughly, I can't remember the full details of all the events but it was well fluffed for better reading, the fishing one was one, there was another guy who fell over a mooring line, there was another one where someone jump ashore and landed on a woman.
I would suggest that you do your job and pastime as well and as joyful as you can make it and worry less about peeing on someone else's bonfire.
I leave you with two more quotes for my old dad, never waste grey matter on something you can alter and you die if you worry, you die if you don't, so why worry

[tonto]

Originally Posted by biffer

We could all campaign for a better life on the water but the more intelligent ones have realised that they are flogging a dead horse, and haven't got that amount of free time to mount such a crusade.
On the MIAB front there was a guy a few years back who got hold of one of these reports and investigated them more thoroughly, I can't remember the full details of all the events but it was well fluffed for better reading, the fishing one was one, there was another guy who fell over a mooring line, there was another one where someone jump ashore and landed on a woman.
I would suggest that you do your job and pastime as well and as joyful as you can make it and worry less about peeing on someone else's bonfire.
I leave you with two more quotes for my old dad, never waste grey matter on something you can alter and you die if you worry, you die if you don't, so why worry

Good point, but the another quote along the lines of, "the only thing evil needs is for good men to do nothing" or something like that.
Without people capaigning we would still have slavery, women would be still not have the vote, poll tax, the list could go on and on and on, and we would still have rotten boroughs, and massive corruption of politicians (more than we do now!)
However I take your point, and do enjoy going out in my boat, and having fun, catching fish etc.
However this is a forum where people express thier views and idea's and as such I put mine across, it is just such a shame that for so many people who purport to have safety forefront in their minds are so vocal about wanting to keep the current status quo, and do nothing to enhance safety at sea!
I am trying to propose a middle way that would avoid heavy handed regulation, as I dont want it, just as most others dont, but fear unless there is some changes, we are going to get it imposed upon us.
Burying our heads in the sand will not work I am afraid, we can be part of the solution, or have it imposed upon us

[biffer]

Agree with you but after nearly 60 years and more than 50 on boats( dad was commercial fisherman) I have come to the conclusion trying to find middle is not achievable. The MCA always seem to bugger it up and go over the top. And it always costs us more money it seems. So better to leave it than get it buggered up even more