Compulsory licensing and mandatory kill cords? What do you think?

[wildwords]

Unfortunately laws are aimed at those within the population who require them, but those same individuals are usually the ones to flaunt the law. The impression in our area is that the vast majority of persons using boats where and when kill cords are necessary do so, as evidenced by the low level of incidences reported every year. However it would be interesting to see either RNLI, MCA and Coast Guard data on how many incidences of ‘runaway boats’ are actually recorded in Britain and Ireland each year.

Is this similar to wearing a seat belt in a car? Is an education campaign run in tandem with legislation required? Legislation may provide the power for the authorities to take a retrospective prosecution against an individual who has had an incident but actively policing it would be difficult to say the least. As with many things today the ‘good’ citizens individual discretion is eroded. Do we trust our fellow citizen to be sensible or are we all in a race to the bottom with legislation for every possible outcome or potential danger.

A set of stickers to be applied on every throttle stating ‘Wear your Kill Cord’, a video shown in every club of the potential outcomes, the potential of a fine….. will these convince those individuals who are reckless?

[Boycey]

I was a pilot for 20 years. It's actaully surprisingly easy to fly and land an aeroplane, yet you must have a licence, insurance and a medical, even to fly a microlight. That's because flying an aircraft is one very small part of being a competent pilot. Being a pilot is understanding safety, weather, air traffic, VHF procedures, landing and approach procedures, rights of way etc etc.

Boating is just as complex as I have discovered. I now have an RYA advanced powerboat qualification.
Why is it OK on any level, to allow a completely unqualified, inexperienced and ignorant individual to take to the seas in a potentially lethal, high-speed water craft?
Yes, compulsory licencing. I have one so why shouldn't everyone?
"Freedom" I hear you cry. Bollocks to that, I want the freedom to go to sea in my boat without putting my own family at risk by being surrouned by incomopetent idiots..

Good training is great fun, very rewarding and will possibly save your life one day.

GO AND GET TRAINED OR STAY OUT OF MY WAY

[Seamonstie]

Educate people of the importance of kill cords, it is very bad that it takes an accident like this to bring it to our attention again. Sad but true. My condolences to the family and friends.

Seamonstie

[cliveshep]

We already have far too much legislation, education yes but NOT compulsory.

Boating is the last great freedom - why should we surrender it? Great sadness about loss of life, any life, but we need to ban cars - they crash, also roads - because if we had no roads people couldn't speed on them.

We have so much legislation, expense, taxation etc already, do you really want MORE?

By all means campaign to make people aware but legislate - no way!

[whiteknight16]

I believe education is the most important I am also a motorcyclist as well as the holder of my Masters ticket and other boat and motorcycle safety certificates, but it doesn't stop the behaviour you see both as a biker and a boater I have to display a licence on my boat (empowered) why not do the same with the Killcord Sticker, no, it wont stop the stupids of this world but on the other hand it may just focus attention, something along the lines of the BikeSafe sticker in the rear window of my CAR you would be surprised how much attention it gets both from bikers and car drivers. With all due respect and condolences to the family this man had a beautiful boat and was surely aware of the risks and the killcord was still in place when the boat was retrieved, NO Iam not pre-judging but more making the point you can legislate but to do so you must first EDUCATE. By the way if you think 'cos I'm a biker I'm some young idiot I'm 75 next Tuesday.

[samolea]

As much as I would dearly like to vote for compulsory training and kill-cords I fear that the people who most need the training would find a way around it and/or still not take the necessary precautions. Sometimes I helm without a kill cord, other times I wouldn't leave the dock without one, like most people I assess the circumstances and make an informed decision on the basis of that appraisal. I once had an RNLI safety check on one of my boats, the first thing that the inspector said was that he didn't expect to find very much wrong, he said that the only people that asked for a safety inspection are the ones that are least likely to need it!
Lets not bring in yet more legislation and cost for very little or no gain.

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by Ribbed41Pleasure

Willks . . Haha if you say so

Nos4r2 - not sure 'bloody dumb' is a fair criticism as if the risks have been 'balanced' it is hardly 'dumb' .

I would be interested in what you believe to be the 'cuttoff' (no pun intended!!) of when a boat does not need a kill chord. Because with your stance it appears anyone getting on the water without a kill chord is plain dumb.

I also think this is a kneejerk reaction and yes boats are bloody dangerous. If everyone had that mind set when they stepped on one we would not be debating this issue.

I do not know your boat or your Yamaha set up or your boating 'style' so I would not dare comment, but I can assure you in my personal experience I have nearly broken a few skulls because the engine has quit at 40kts because the kill chord has tripped. Bad helm stance? - probably, bad throttle position? _ probably, Bad toggle switch design? - Probably, Bad operator technique? - Probably . . . this list could go on. My point it - I have had more near injuries at slow and fast speed using MY MERCURY kill chord than I have of mowing everyone down. I am not suggesting this will never happen as law of averages says it will. So I mitigate against both, one by not using the kill chord (unless only crew sat down in prone position in rough weather) and other times have a very strict policy on helm use and who goes where and how on the boat.

Maybe I am a fool, but dumb, no - I have thought about it. Something that I bet many to which this whole debate relates - have not. Education and an appreciation of whilst fun, it is bloody dangerous maybe the best defence.

Hence the edit-it now says 'stupid'.

Fix the cause of the problem rather than mitigating against the symptoms.

Every MERCURY that I've owned including the CURRENT MERCURY has never had a problem with the kill being accidentally activated.


IMO, every boat that requires the helm to be continuously manned to keep it under control should have a killcord.

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by Boycey

I was a pilot for 20 years. It's actaully surprisingly easy to fly and land an aeroplane, yet you must have a licence, insurance and a medical, even to fly a microlight. That's because flying an aircraft is one very small part of being a competent pilot. Being a pilot is understanding safety, weather, air traffic, VHF procedures, landing and approach procedures, rights of way etc etc.

Boating is just as complex as I have discovered. I now have an RYA advanced powerboat qualification.
Why is it OK on any level, to allow a completely unqualified, inexperienced and ignorant individual to take to the seas in a potentially lethal, high-speed water craft?
Yes, compulsory licencing. I have one so why shouldn't everyone?
"Freedom" I hear you cry. Bollocks to that, I want the freedom to go to sea in my boat without putting my own family at risk by being surrouned by incomopetent idiots..

Good training is great fun, very rewarding and will possibly save your life one day.

GO AND GET TRAINED OR STAY OUT OF MY WAY

So what you're saying is that there's less absolute bloody idiots on the roads where there's been compulsory licencing for over half a century than there are at sea?

Passing a test doesn't make an idiot stop being an idiot.

I agree 100%-go and get trained. However, if you think that any form of government implemented training regime is going to be anywhere near as useful/relevant as what's currently on offer I think you're going to be very disappointed.

In reality what we'll end up with is a massive spiralling of training costs (I've seen this before when legislation comes in) for a course that's so watered down that it's pointless.

I'm sure someone will say 'well this time it'll be different'. It hasn't been different yet. What makes you think we'll be different from the rest of them?


Just a thought. You're a pilot, which in itself tends to suggest that
1) You're at least fairly intelligent
2)You've got enough income that training costs on a boat wouldn't be an issue.
3) You're already of the right mindset to respond to training and will probably actively seek it out.

I think you're assuming everyone is the same. They aren't. The terminally stupid paddlers in the gene pool also own boats.

[simonc2409]

I'm a relative newby and the though of more regulation sickens me. We live in a society where we're told what we can and can't do at every corner and I'm fed up with it.

I'm absolutely in favour of compulsory kill cords, but you've got to educate users to remember to use them. I'm also all in favour of compulsory training. I haven't done my RYA inshore course yet but I will do very soon now I appreciate the need for it but compulsory licensing is a step too far for me.

The big issue has to be education. Why would anybody drive a high powered boat without the kill cord attached? The same reason why thousands of people use their mobile phones while driving. Ignorance and the belief that 'it won't happen to me'.

[maxg]

I am still a pilot. I do agree the exams and training in General Aviation but ONLY because of the damage to other's a crashing plane can do.
But with boating you run a high chance of over regulation then favoring the commercial sector, as I have see with the CAA.
GA is know a difficult thing to do over the skies of the UK because of the cutting up of the sky ways in favor of commercial airlines (look at a lot of "international airports" that have six flights a day three in the morning and three in the afternoon, but for a GA pilot to fly into it outside these times is very hard, expensive and unwelcoming, considering that it would have been a small airport not so long ago.).
I agree with the idea of training but not legislation as it gets out of control very quickly.

[WOPALX]

On the subject of compulsory wearing of kill cords, I don't think that would be practical to police. Certainly education and perhaps a fine if your vessel does not have one fitted would be more practical.

However it surprises me that you don't have mandatory licensing for powerboats that can travel over 10 knots ...

In Aus we have had such a system for years, more recently applicants have had to show practical experience (log book) & do a theory / rules exam or do a 1 day theory / practical course before being granted a licence. I certainly don't think this is too arduous, expensive or inconvenient so that people understand the rules of the water, the hazards, safety gear that should be used and some basic boat handling.

When I recently bought my RIB I booked my wife and eldest daughter into a licence course, why because I figured they should at least have the training to know what to do in the event that I was unable to drive the boat and I probably have too many bad habits from years of boating.


NOW what I do find as a complete oxymoron is we don't have a similar system for boats other than power. Any fool can buy a yacht and cause complete havoc on the waterways as they don't legally need any training.

Just my 0.02c worth, and maybe my opinion would be different if I was not used to such laws being in place.

[makeitfit]

Sorry I've not read the whole lot above but policing must surely be impossible for this :/
Better to have a basic qualification to pass and then get a discount from insurers. incentive all round then
We dread the summer as every weekend we get the ebay helms turning up on the beach with the latest unfinished project
If only we could seek and destroy instead of seek and rescue

[davridge]

It doesn't matter what regulations are brought in accidents will always happen. The amount of accident in proportion to the amount of on water activity are very low and policing legislation such as wearing a kill cord is nigh on impossible.

It would cost boaters more money for some new legislative department to be set up and possibly be run by a bunch of civil servants with no experience whatsoever of what boating is all about.

[Anchorhandler]

Originally Posted by Cookee

Can anyone confirm a statistic I heard? Training is compulsory in France and yet they have more accidents? If true is that because they have more activity on the water or is it per 100 boaters? Or is it BS?

Hi Cookee

I'm quite convinced that its just scaremongering by people convinced that mandatory training is not required.

I'm reasonably well tuned into the French boating scene as not only do i spend all my time boating over here but the brother in law is also a crewmember for the SNSM.

There is a much bigger maritime police presence on the water over here than in the UK. A lot of French complain about the regulation and random stop-checks by the maritime patrols but at the end of the day you have to ask yourself this.....how many defects and issues would we find in the UK if random stop-checks were introduced? We (very) often hear about boats running around with no lifejackets on board, no (or defective) VHF, no flares etc....

A few month ago both myself and fellow Rib.net member Tonto were involved in quite a spirited discussion on the subject of mandatory regulation. We both spend a very large percentage of the year on the water and can see better than most the issues caused by a lack of training.
Last year i spent the hourly equivalent of roughly 7.5 months non stop in the waters of the Solent and can recount some truly dismal and ignarant boating behaviour. (I've posted pics of some of them).

Although i'm not in favour of a mandatory KC regulation i am and have been for some time now in favour of a mandatory minimum safety certificate which would need to be gained before anyone wishes to own a boat.

I would like to see it administered by the MCGA (Not the RYA) requireing only a day's classroom training but concentrating on basic safety at sea.

Sadly, from where i sit and with my viewpoint of the boating community, i believe we're losing the battle in trying to maintain or promote a safe boating mentality.

"Education not Legislation"?? OK, but i fear that more and more nowadays, people are needing a gently regulatory "nudge" in order to get educated.

Simon

[simonnud]

There is still the possibility that he was trainined and was wearing a kill cord. (in some pics of the kill cord i think you can just see a loop?) but the kill cord is no going to work 100% if worn around the wrist which may of happened in Padstow?

I am contacting my local Harbour master to help promote safe boating in there patrols and possibly erect safety signs saying wear your lifejacket and kill cord.

Education is key.

[sib]

enforcement won`t work. people still drive without seatbelts, on the phone, drunk, and too fast
education is key but there will always be accidents sadly.

surely the outboard manufacturers can make some kind of annoying "ping" noise to remind people to attach the cord, a bit like a modern car does with a seatbelt.

stickers and signs on consoles, pontoons, slipways would only help too.

i regularly take my rib on the Camel estuary and i know the sailing instructor, it`s all very sad.

i`m disappointed that someone wrote on this forum "more money than sense".

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by simonc2409

I'm a relative newby and the though of more regulation sickens me. We live in a society where we're told what we can and can't do at every corner and I'm fed up with it.

I'm absolutely in favour of compulsory kill cords, but you've got to educate users to remember to use them. I'm also all in favour of compulsory training. I haven't done my RYA inshore course yet but I will do very soon now I appreciate the need for it but compulsory licensing is a step too far for me.

The big issue has to be education. Why would anybody drive a high powered boat without the kill cord attached? The same reason why thousands of people use their mobile phones while driving. Ignorance and the belief that 'it won't happen to me'.

Realistically, do you think making anything compulsory won't lead to compulsory licencing and more regulation? (I'm never going to say not using a killcord is a good idea btw)

[phil jones]

Hello i dont think we should be made to be licenced its already getting hard enough to get on the water.IM afraid that things like this will make having a boat very elitist and will stop very many people enjoying the water which is what we need to keep boating enjoyable and alive

[HughN]

Hugh's Law #356: The number of rules and regulations of any organisation can only ever increase. (Corollary to the second law of thermodynamics!)

Has any knee-jerk legislation ever been effective?

In this country it used to b the case that if it isn't specifically prohibited you can do anything you want; it has recently started to change to you can do anything that is specifically permitted.

Regulation diminishes the need for common-sense.

I won't be buying PBR again - or buying from any companies who continue to advertise therein (I'll thumb through it in W H Smith's to find out!)

"All the gear and no idea" anyone?

[maxg]

Also I think that all the legislation in the world will not make people were kill cord's.
I have see many skippers leaving it "dangling" just though habbit.
Why don't the manufactures make a styem? ie an actuator that would initiate a warning to start in the event the engine would cut if it went hard over to port and staid there ie out of control boat that has started to circulate?.