Compulsory licensing and mandatory kill cords? What do you think?

[Sebbo]

Originally Posted by Boycey

I was a pilot for 20 years. It's actaully surprisingly easy to fly and land an aeroplane, yet you must have a licence, insurance and a medical, even to fly a microlight. That's because flying an aircraft is one very small part of being a competent pilot. Being a pilot is understanding safety, weather, air traffic, VHF procedures, landing and approach procedures, rights of way etc etc.

Boating is just as complex as I have discovered. I now have an RYA advanced powerboat qualification.
Why is it OK on any level, to allow a completely unqualified, inexperienced and ignorant individual to take to the seas in a potentially lethal, high-speed water craft?
Yes, compulsory licencing. I have one so why shouldn't everyone?
"Freedom" I hear you cry. Bollocks to that, I want the freedom to go to sea in my boat without putting my own family at risk by being surrouned by incomopetent idiots..

Good training is great fun, very rewarding and will possibly save your life one day.

GO AND GET TRAINED OR STAY OUT OF MY WAY

As a pilot too I couldn't agree more, loads of the disciplines cross straight over, its not about the piece of paper its about competence.

[RGBARKER1]

One point relating to last w/e.... I noticed that the steering system looked the same as my RIB. If it is, then once the wheel is let go of, then the boat will go in that direction until it stops.. The rib was circling so that makes me think that the driver was mucking about cornering when they were flipped from the boat. On occasions like that, before cornering hard, I ALWAYS tell the passengers were are going to turn tight and to hold on extra tight as the G Force gets amplified when the boat bounces on a wave.....

[RGBARKER1]

I have PB2 and am a Yacht Master, with a lot of experience. I know of other Yacht masters, PB2 ticket holders, whom are still incompetent- The course/qualification does not necessarily make them safe... THAT IS A BIG PROBLEM and why compulsory licensing would not necessarily work. Examiners need to raise the standards and not pass everyone.

[uk_matt]

I've been the proud owner of a 8.5 metre Ribcraft with 2 x 200 Suzuki's for just over a year now. I have a kill cord and can honestly say I never wear it.

The only time I've been approached by any authorities was a Police rib during Cowes week and the only comment he made was attach the kill cord, it could save a life. I all but ignored him.

There have been two occasions since my ownership where I would say I put myself and others at risk - mildly, but at risk. On both occasions I should have been wearing my kill cord in case the worst did happen. I didn't and still don't.

Having seen (via the news) the incident in Padstow, I will NEVER drive the boat again without attaching the kill cord to me. I feel stupid for not doing so now I've seen such a sad waste of life and family torn apart. A kill cord would almost certainly have prevented that. I should have respected the craft I'm lucky to own a long time ago.

So should this be law - absolutely. Should it apply to smaller craft/tenders etc; probably, but lets deal with the biggest dangers first. In any event, we as a community should not be debating this. We should be in support of mandatory kill cord use where fitted, encourage fitting (within a reasonable multi year time frame) to X size boats without them and damn well make it bad form amongst our peers to not wear one; regardless of any law passing to mandate.

Event's in Padstow would have been prevented with a kill cord. How can we do anything other than be in support of change to stop that happening again. I am Level 2 certificated and I'm ashamed its taken this event to make me realise their importance.

[RGBARKER1]

My ride-on mower has a "kill switch" under the seat so if you get off it, the engine stops- something similar could work on boats....???

[Ribbed41Pleasure]

harryesd - agreed,

Jezza . . . yes I do. And yes I wear it around my leg, as per my training advice years ago. Unfortunately the design of my boat means I have to spread my legs a bit . . . oooh er, or stand or sit and move about so it is very easy to move your leg back and pop! Everyone goes flying forward! My previous boat lent itself to having a kill chord on at all times whereas this one does not. You could argue that for that reason a kill chord on this boat is more a necessity and I actually agree. But, fortunately when I do wear the kill chord I am usually solo or with only a couple of people well seated and secure so when it does kill it is a frustration not an accident. It is the days when I have standing room only type trips where it becomes just as dangerous to have one than it is not too! Again you could then argue is going out on the boat in this configuration dangerous in itself. Probably, as is driving in my car to the marina but hey we still do it.

If we all employed the adage, there are those that have and those that will, boat safety would be so much better and also self regulated. Utopia is hard to achieve sadly.

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by uk_matt

I've been the proud owner of a 8.5 metre Ribcraft with 2 x 200 Suzuki's for just over a year now. I have a kill cord and can honestly say I never wear it.

The only time I've been approached by any authorities was a Police rib during Cowes week and the only comment he made was attach the kill cord, it could save a life. I all but ignored him.

There have been two occasions since my ownership where I would say I put myself and others at risk - mildly, but at risk. On both occasions I should have been wearing my kill cord in case the worst did happen. I didn't and still don't.

Having seen (via the news) the incident in Padstow, I will NEVER drive the boat again without attaching the kill cord to me. I feel stupid for not doing so now I've seen such a sad waste of life and family torn apart. A kill cord would almost certainly have prevented that. I should have respected the craft I'm lucky to own a long time ago.

So should this be law - absolutely. Should it apply to smaller craft/tenders etc; probably, but lets deal with the biggest dangers first. In any event, we as a community should not be debating this. We should be in support of mandatory kill cord use where fitted, encourage fitting (within a reasonable multi year time frame) to X size boats without them and damn well make it bad form amongst our peers to not wear one; regardless of any law passing to mandate.

Event's in Padstow would have been prevented with a kill cord. How can we do anything other than be in support of change to stop that happening again. I am Level 2 certificated and I'm ashamed its taken this event to make me realise their importance.

Please don't take this as ad hominem. It's not meant that way. Apply it to others who have behaved like you did, from your own perspective now.

So, what you're saying is that a law you're unlikely to hear about will change attitudes of those completely ignorant to the dangers and who in many cases just don't care enough or are incapable of even thinking the process through?


The accident in Padstow will do far more to publicise the use of killcords than any law or legislated training ever will.

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by RGBARKER1

My ride-on mower has a "kill switch" under the seat so if you get off it, the engine stops- something similar could work on boats....???

Reckon you can stay in the seat permanently? Or on the same bit of deck?

[Superduck]

Please excuse my ignorance as I am not familiar with operating laws and licensing in the UK.

Can only share what the law requires and dictates in South Africa here on the dark continent.

To operate a power driven leisure vessel (in different categories) requires formal training, examinations and an appropriate license. RIB's included as they are also power driven vessels.

For leisure and sport fishing vessels smaller than 9 meters size there are 3 categories of skippers licenses:

1. Category R: Inland waters (lakes, dams, estuaries and harbours). The license holder may not proceed to sea with his vessel.

2. Category C: Same as category R but also allowed to venture out to sea for a distance up to 15 nautical miles.

3. Category B: Permitted to go out to sea for 40 nautical miles.

The category C & B license can after appropriate training, examinations and experience be endorsed to include:

4. Surf (beach) launching.

5. Certified to conduct dive launches.

6. A night rating.

Apart from skipper's licenses required, all boats must also be registered at an approved South African Maritime Safety Authority (SAMSA) agency which will issue it a registration number and survey its sea-worthiness and category classification. Sea-worthy's must be renewed yearly.

Categories of sea-worthiness considered and awarded are:

7. Category R: Same restrictions as for inland skippers license above (confined water).

8. Category D: Single engine vessel limited to 5 nautical miles off-shore.

9. Category C: Twin engine vessel limited to 15 nautical miles off-shore.

10. Category B: Twin engine vessel limited to 40 nautical miles off-shore.

Category C and B will be distinguished by the requirements of safety equipment on board, and a vessel going further than 15 nautical miles must be equipped with a 25 Watt VHF radio. Up to 15 nm requires only a 29 Mhz marine band radio but soon to be phased out and only VHF used).

All vessels require a radio station license which must be renewed yearly, and to operate on VHF marine channels requires operators training and a license.

To keep all validated and in time requires a lot of burocracy, red tape, and in the end frustration and money.

We are also supposed to wear a kill switch lanyard at all times but like when out fishing it is not always practical. For surf launches wearing the kill switch lanyard and lifejackets are mandatory.

These safety and nautical requirements are policed and inspected by the SA Police water wing.

I was always sure that in the UK the minimum requirements would be exactly the same?

[nigel52]

Originally Posted by biffer

Who will do this training. The RYA will be rubbing there hands together. While I do agree to educate I'm not sure the RYA should be given complete control of the helm. I have chosen not to renew my commercial ticket. When they send me a reminder saying I need to do yet another little course and I can do it on line and take it as many times as I like I realise that they only want your money. Maybe the people who build and sell these boats have a moral duty to make sure the buyer have what it takes to drive it. Perhaps every decent boater has a duty to police the water. I don't know

I do think the builders and sellers of boats should be required to do more.

I have recently turned to Ribbing. I have roughly 50 years of experience on the water from dinghy's, small ski boats, large yachts etc. First qualification was boat handling in the Royal Navy, then various shore side RYA courses and also an IRCC that covers just about everything.

We had a pretty powerful 16' ski boat when we were in our 20's before turning to sailing. This year when we sold the yacht and bought a 6m RIB I was determined to make sure I had some suitable training and equally important wanted my wife, son & girlfriend to come on the training.

Piranha RIBs suggested that one of their team 'Dog' Phillips a very experienced off-shore/security RIB instructor took us out for the day with the emphasis on safety and proper handling of a high speed RIB.

This has multiple benefits to us as a family.
- Highlighted to my 26yr old son the dangers of a RIB and the proper way to drive it and the security aspects ie kill cord etc
- Re-emphasised to me I still had a lot to learn and re-remember and never to take short cuts on safety.

Two examples of things I had forgotten:
1. Do a right hand turn when stopping at speed to avoid the wash coming over the back.
2. If someone goes over the side, TURN THE BOAT TOWARDS THEM SO THAT THE ENGINE MOVES AWAY FROM THE PERSON IN THE WATER. Most peoples natural instinct is to turn away from the person which is obviosuly wrong.

As well as having a kill cord attached we also keep a spare kill cord on board. What happens if the driver goes overboard and either in recovery the kill cord gets lost or there is a strong tide and the boat has drifted some distance away from the driver without a means of starting the engine one cannot get back to them.

The problem is that one's natural instinct is it will not happen to me; rather than think it will happen to me so what can I do to mitigate the situation.

Compulsory Licensing does not make one a better sailor/Ribber - Proper education is the only way.

[ALANT]

[QUOTE=Mark Of Loxley;535402]

Although it was a tragic accident, attaching your kill cord to yourself, either via wrist strap or clip on to a lifejacket should be the first thing you do.



Should not be round the wrist far to easy to slip off

[willk]

Originally Posted by Ribbed41Pleasure

Willks . . Haha if you say so
.....Maybe I am a fool, but dumb, no - I have thought about it. Something that I bet many to which this whole debate relates - have not.

I thought you might say that. You're right too, one can be foolish and clever at the same time. I shall share with you a story:

I had the good fortune to know a most unusual man for many years. He taught me more practical things and passed more common sense to me than my own father did. He left his farm in Ireland in the 1930s and joined your RAF as other ranks, training to be radio operator. He overcame class issues, chauvinism and general odds to be accepted into pilot training in 1938. By 1940 he was flying a Spitfire over the BEF evac at the Battle of Dunkirk. His engine shot out, he ditched on the beach and made it "home" in a small boat. Back in the air the next day he later continued to fight through the Battle of Britain. A true survivor and nobody's fool. Except for one little thing - he refused to wear a seatbelt, couldn't see the point, wasn't bothered, etc. When legislation was introduced he actually went to the length of getting a Doctor to give him a "letter of excuse" in case he was pulled over. Clever man? yes! Brave man? - for sure! Bit foolish about seatbelts? - definitely!

Even if you won't wear your killcord for yourself and your crew - wear one for the other people on the water, and the emergency services...

[Ribbed41Pleasure]

Nigel, sound and humbled advice! I agree it is education and realisation of the dangers.

In the aviation industry we are going away from prescribed rules and competency checks.

Crews are encouraged to discuss dangers rather than brief standard items from a chart or book or checklist. We are being encouraged to stop and sort of say to each other - "What the hell is gonna kill us today?" Even if we do not come up with a mitigating action to avoid or reduce this danger, by merely admitting it's existence both to the other guy but more so ourselves, we are surely in a better place to avoid it from happening. This is something that as some very open and honest people had admitted to not doing when buying into this lovely leisure industry.

[Coverguy]

I agree with those who advocate licensing - our waters are becoming more congested and in my view those driving boats should be subjected to BOTH training and a test of competence.
Why should a boat be any different from a car or motorcycle, arguable they are more dangerous as used without the guidance of roads and their regulations.. Add to that people being both in the craft and also in the water I am amazed we do not have more accidents. Our boat is in Swanage and I see boats far too close to swimmers and travelling at silly speeds.

We would not allow an untrained person behind the wheel of a car on our roads so why at the helm of a boat in our waters...

[PBAY]

I don't think two options in a poll is enough to cover all that needs to be discussed in relation to the issue of powerboat (and sail) safety. I would also need "not sure" and "both" on the poll.

For many years I used to be anti legislation but I see so many idiots, unfortunates and unlucky people out there (and have plucked many of them out of the water over the last few years) that I am now not sure about the issue.

I don't think legislation for kill cords alone is enough but maybe something like a PB2 Qual or something as a minimum. (and indeed options of qualifications other than the RYA to avoid it being even more of a monopoly by them)

Even if qualified/legislation is applied of course that is no guarantee of people being reminded to do the right thing kill cord wise and more so education, ongoing training, reminders etc all play there part. Hence the need for "both" being an option.

Everyone can get complacent from time to time and we all need refreshers and reminders. Many new people need to be shown from day one and the importance of what they are learning underlined. Learning without a purpose in mind can be boring but with a purpose in mind it becomes focused if not interesting.

If legislated for it also raises issues like should all boats be coded? It has been determined that commercial operators have a need for a minimum level of safety kit at sea on their boats so that surely should apply to all boaters including leisure ones? Ditto training levels you can be licensed for the daytime only commercially but what about at night with just a PB2 for leisure operators?

The big issue is how it would be policed if there was legislation. The less policing the bigger the penalty has to be to make sure the take up and actual application is wide.

I am commercial/advanced and I never venture out without wearing my life jacket all the time, kill cord on in a rib/open powerboat, waterproof vhf clipped onto me and in my pocket I have a knife and compass.

So far in this debate I do not actually have enough information to form a final opinion either way (apart from the education element is good either way) but I do like threads like this that debate the issue sensibly to try and arrive at the right solution before some boff in a suit in London knowing nothing about boating decides it for us.

[HugoMS]

For those of you who wish to impute wrong motives over our sticker campaign I wish to state the following: Here at Powerboat and RIB we are shocked, saddened and deeply upset over the tragic accident that happened in Padstow and we are determined to do all that we can to increase awareness of safety measures and to educate so that we might be able to go some way to help prevent another horrifying accident. There have been 19 fatalities in the last 4 years, and numerous near escapes from out of control boats. At this present time we are working with the marine investigators who are fully in approval of our campaign. We are not just a commercial magazine, we have been passionate about family boating for over 20 years and as the only UK magazine dedicated to this exact sector of the market we also feel a responsibility to use our voice. The reason we have used our logo is because we want to show that we care about this and that it carries a level of authority as having been designed and produced by people who know what they are talking about. If 'Joe Bloggs' had produced a sign it may show attaching the cord around the wrist or onto a zip as shown on television this week. Our sticker carries our stamp of experience and approval and our recommendation, we believe it is far superior to the RYA (branded) sticker which has been in circulation. Would you also have an issue with the RYA sticker carrying their logo, which actually dominates the sticker? ! The answer would be ridiculous as it merely shows the sticker comes from a respected organisation who have taken the initiative to do something. We have received a tremendous level of support from respected industry sources and from private individuals and organisations wishing to stock batches of the warning sticker. We are not in any way suggesting that 'our' sticker be an officially legislated sign, but that each vessel should be required to carry a suitable warning.

As regards the thread concerning mandatory legislation and licencing, we are not suggesting this would stop all accidents or irresponsible behaviour, but if it helps to reduce such, it has to be worthwhile. The legislation does not need to be burdensome or costly, but rather good practice. Who would really mind having a one day basic course on a subject they have a love for in order to obtain a licence that helps them to be a better seaman and gets them off to a better start? Even to drive a 50cc moped, riders are required to do a one day CBT basic course, whereas individuals are allowed to power off with a 50-350HP OB without any experience or knowledge. Even on this thread, there are several lacking the knowledge as to how to wear the kill cord correctly. It should not be worn on the wrist or clipped to clothing - EVER. Many here have claimed that a basic training requirement would put people off boating. However, what could put people off boating more than such a terrible tragedy? In my view, those individuals on this thread who rebel against wearing a kill cord and /or have trivialized the wearing of such with natty/clever comments are both ill-informed and dangerous. Whilst many on this thread show a high degree of responsibility and a mature attitude, frankly I am disgusted by some of the attitudes displayed here. HMS

[Ribbed41Pleasure]

And willks I am not suggesting we or I do not wear and should not wear a kill chord! Just that there can sometimes be a situation that may on balance make it no safer to do so. I do not want to be pulled up or called a to##er by onlookers just because the law says we should ALWAYS wear a kill chord.

As Douglas Bader once wrote - 'Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men'

I just hope that those that implement any rules have the same wise approach to policing it. I fear not!

[lukewhiting]

I dont think legislation is needed its education that needs to be increased...from who i dont know but i think thats the best way.

Ive been thrown out my thundercat a number of times a luckily always been wearing my kill cord. I think it goes without saying you should wear a killcord, its like a selt belt in car.

My own thoughts though at that i use my boat partly to get away from all the regulations and red tape. its a great way to just do whatever you want whereever and how ever you want. It would take the fun out of it if regulations were bought in.

[willk]

Originally Posted by Ribbed41Pleasure

And willks I am not suggesting we or I do not wear and should not wear a kill chord!

I accept that this may be your real position on the issue. However, it's not what you said in your first post and that was what we were responding to. Read the post below - it reads (to me) like "I don't wear a killcord, my crew don't and they're not safe". I strongly disagreed with that apparent sentiment and I know Nos did too. Fair play to you for taking a step back from it.

Originally Posted by Ribbed41Pleasure

And then Mercury users (if like the last two I have owned) will have a greater risk of injuring people from false emergency stops because the kill cord toggle switch is too sensitive. I gave up using mine for this reason. I had to balance risk of no kill chord against using one which caused it's own dangers. So now only briefed 'trusted' crew go near the throttle/helm. I make it quite clear to everyone the dangers and get quite 'shirty' with people on the boat who don't listen or head the warnings. Kill chords in my experience solve one problem but can create another - they are not the holy grail in my view (for Mercury anyway)

[Nos4r2]

I would like to point out that this is a personal opinion and not in any way Ribnet policy.

HMS.

The stickers are a FABULOUS idea. I don't have any issue with your magazine name being on them.

However.

You are NOT an elected industry spokesperson and your campaign for regulation is unwelcome. I repeat my earlier statements about government involvement being a negative force.
The RNLI refuse government funding for a very good reason-they'll be messed around with. If you think we'd be otherwise I'm afraid you're deluded.

If the campaign for legislation does not end, I will be cancelling my subscription to your magazine. I urge others who feel the same way to vote with their feet as well.

If you're going to put your head over the parapet,deal the enemy a crippling blow otherwise all you do is to shout 'look at me, I'm here' and give them somewhere to aim.

Hopefully they haven't seen you yet.