Compulsory licensing and mandatory kill cords? What do you think?

[abduls friend]

Originally Posted by chewy

As far as I'm aware no RNLI RIB's or SIB's use kill cords....

I'm not responding as an RNLI spokesperson, but my understanding is where fitted on RIBs SIBs with wheel steering, killcords are worn. Where tiller steering, if killcords fitted, they are worn. However, some engines used in smaller craft have tiller throttles which are designed to kill if released.

[Starovich]

Originally Posted by orson

i do think you should have some lessons on boating, before you can use a powerboat,
remember this is a 1off incerdent.

one off PUBLISHED in the mainstream press incident

Who is going to stop someone with no clue and a fat wallet getting a 60+mph boat, who is going to enforce the lessons? is that not what this debate is all about?

[Onboard]

Originally Posted by C2 RIBS

We use similar ones we got from RNLI,

I am unsure on why there is such an anti feel towards a commercial mag seller who is trying to help people save their lives. Yes the timing is directly after a tragedy but actually what better time than to focus our minds on basic skills and basic survival options. Everyone can choose not to use on, buy one, obtain one and will continue to make their own decisions on their safety.
Clearly from the position of what operators were reporting this weekend on many forums, within 24-48hrs of the deaths, the advice was ignored anyway and loads were out without using them.

I believe other companies such as RYA do similar stickers and they have their logos on the sticker.

I would disagree with Ian in respect of whether a commercial publisher should be offering Kill-Cord warning stickers. It does 'smack' of opportunism and even if not commercially motivated, it appears to be in common with direct quotes to the BBC, no doubt intended to raise Rib and Powerboat Magazines profile. Whilst I agree a mandatory warning sticker is a good idea, it should be manufacturer driven and not rely upon a very low circulation specialist marine publication to be the medium of implementation. The actual effect of PBRM's sticker campaign will I suspect be virtually minima ?

In respect of the need for better education, it's beyond doubt that there's a glaring need, but I personally doubt the RYA is the best medium for delivering that. It's mediocre performance in respect of power-boating generally, is largely due to it's increasingly commercial attitude and a historical yet on-going, over emphasis on matters relating to sail. Take a look at the RYA's published accounts and 'wonder' at both the directors remuneration and overhead by way of salaries - It's an 'Old Farts Club' protecting it's commercial interests and maintaining the 'comfortable' status quo.

It's about time the marine industry woke up to that, and considered an effective medium of education such as City & Guilds where the new boat-handling course offers a more rounded, and perhaps better training regime and it appears to be taking hold. There's a crying need for some form of implementation of compulsory training before taking to the water and that should include a series of exceedingly graphic images of the consequences of NOT using a kill cord !

[mister p]

The magazine and their stickers. A little bit poorly aimed and irresponsible. They don't represent me and I feel that they are doing more harm than good. A little bit tabloid "We were the first, we did this, and it's because of us" going on. If they're not careful, it may well end up because of them.

[Cookee]

Originally Posted by RGBARKER1

My ride-on mower has a "kill switch" under the seat so if you get off it, the engine stops- something similar could work on boats....???

Please:

A Read the thread first

B Give it a bit of thought!

[Boats&Outboards]

Originally Posted by Starovich

one off PUBLISHED in the mainstream press incident

Who is going to stop someone with no clue and a fat wallet getting a 60+mph boat, who is going to enforce the lessons? is that not what this debate is all about?

You do not know that this particular chap had "no clue with a fat wallet". I personally know who sold the boat new to this family 2 years ago and my understanding is they were not what you are portraying.

Peter @ Boatsandoutboards4sale ~ www.BoatsandOutboards4Sale.co.uk ~ 07930 421007

[thomas]

I had 4 takers on my offer just simple red letters to remind you - Offer still open for anyone that want one.

[Solent Ranger]

Originally Posted by London_RIB

Interesting that this is in favour of Power Boat instructors to get more business! So surely they will be supporting this!

I didn't! And I would actually be surprised that a lot of instructors who are full time do. I have a sticker on my boat re the wearing of the kill cord. I even saw a person I know who was in Cowes over the bank holiday and pointed out that wearing the kill cord was perhaps sensible. He was on a big rib with a 250 on the back. He said oh yes, I forgot. He is doing a course with us at the weekend at that point will be raised again.

Legislation is not the answer - people still drive around without seatbelts and that is law!

The whole event is a tragic and I knew of the guy in my former life so it was even more pertinent to me, but education is a better way forward. It is up to all instructors and TC's to reinforce the issue.

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by thomas

I had 4 takers on my offer just simple red letters to remind you - Offer still open for anyone that want one.

I'd love one-thanks. I was holding out for the freebie from PB&R, but now HMS has annoyed me so much I won't put anything with their logo anywhere near my boat.

I'll PM you my addy. Would you like a sticky thread?

[Leapy]

Originally Posted by thomas

I had 4 takers on my offer just simple red letters to remind you - Offer still open for anyone that want one.

As one of the four, I can recommend Large enough to be visible, small enough not to be over dominant.

[longjohn]

Originally Posted by RGBARKER1

My ride-on mower has a "kill switch" under the seat so if you get off it, the engine stops- something similar could work on boats....???

urrmmm have you ever been out of the marina in your boat??
I doubt if you'd get very much further with a kill switch relying on you staying firmly planted on your seat!

[Cookee]

Originally Posted by Ribbed41Pleasure

harryesd - agreed,

Jezza . . . yes I do. And yes I wear it around my leg, as per my training advice years ago. Unfortunately the design of my boat means I have to spread my legs a bit . . . oooh er, or stand or sit and move about so it is very easy to move your leg back and pop! Everyone goes flying forward! My previous boat lent itself to having a kill chord on at all times whereas this one does not. You could argue that for that reason a kill chord on this boat is more a necessity and I actually agree. But, fortunately when I do wear the kill chord I am usually solo or with only a couple of people well seated and secure so when it does kill it is a frustration not an accident. It is the days when I have standing room only type trips where it becomes just as dangerous to have one than it is not too! Again you could then argue is going out on the boat in this configuration dangerous in itself. Probably, as is driving in my car to the marina but hey we still do it.

If we all employed the adage, there are those that have and those that will, boat safety would be so much better and also self regulated. Utopia is hard to achieve sadly.

Get a longer cord? Join two together?

Originally Posted by abduls friend

I'm not responding as an RNLI spokesperson, but my understanding is where fitted on RIBs SIBs with wheel steering, killcords are worn. Where tiller steering, if killcords fitted, they are worn. However, some engines used in smaller craft have tiller throttles which are designed to kill if released.

My understanding is that the RIB and SIBs don't use kill cords - ever. We have a surf rescue RNLI station here and they never use killcords unless policy has changed for the new season?

[Nos4r2]

Current poll score-76% against regulation, 24% for.

Hugo MS, are you listening?

[teamplonker]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

Coming from someone who 'had a word with the harbour masters' in Bristol basin so you could nail about and speed test your boat, and filmed your child at the helm solo I think maybe you should be reminded that it'll apply to you as well.

Thanks for bringing the point to my attention
I had a commercial licence and my son has done a powerboat level 2 and will soon be doing his safety boat certificate.
I think you may have confused me with some of the idiots i see flying around with no sense or training.
I have been testing mine and others boats in that basin for nearly 20 years and no the limitations.

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by teamplonker

Thanks for bringing the point to my attention
I had a commercial licence and my son has done a powerboat level 2 and will soon be doing his safety boat certificate.
I think you may have confused me with some of the idiots i see flying around with no sense or training.
I have been testing mine and others boats in that basin for nearly 20 years and no the limitations.

I haven't confused you with anyone and what I saw you doing in your vids was actually pretty sensible. However, if you push for legislation, it will apply to you as well. Don't expect it to allow you to continue the way you have been as the people who are allowing you to do what you've been doing will soon realise they can't allow it without being fined/hammered themselves.

A bit like the landlords getting fined/shut down if they don't call the police if someone lights up a cigarette in their pub. Not that there's any pubs left...

Government legislation WILL be the thin end of the wedge and the morons will still sit there and say 'durrrr, duzznt appliy ter meee'.

Common sense and legislation are not bedfellows. In too many cases one negates the other.

[Mick Balch]

Originally Posted by thomas

I had 4 takers on my offer just simple red letters to remind you - Offer still open for anyone that want one.

Hi Thomas - I will take one from you please and will send address in pm. if you could email the 'design' or wording I could get a whole lot priced up - without any reference to any commercial organisation and offer them to ribnet users, maybe?

Thank you

[Mick Balch]

Hi Thomas - I will take one from you please and will send address in pm. if you could email the 'design' or wording I could get a whole lot priced up - without any reference to any commercial organisation and offer them to ribnet users, maybe?

Thank you

[Starovich]

Originally Posted by Boats&Outboards

You do not know that this particular chap had "no clue with a fat wallet". I personally know who sold the boat new to this family 2 years ago and my understanding is they were not what you are portraying.

Peter @ Boatsandoutboards4sale ~ BoatsandOutboards4Sale | Hand-picked boats & motors, fully tested, delivered nationwide. ~ 07930 421007

wasn't inferring anything in this particular case.
Its something i have seen first hand over a number of years. The point was who is going to enforce any training requirements. In addition I don't think anyone selling a boat has a responsibility for how the skipper uses it.

[simonnud]

Originally Posted by London_RIB

Interesting that this is in favour of Power Boat instructors to get more business! So surely they will be supporting this!

Perhaps the rules should only be applied to inland/coastal waterways as well as being able to convert various other forms of qualifications/experience into a license!

Oh! and why not make similar requiremnets for cycling/skiing?!!!!!

I voted no and I am a instructor, principle of a powerboat school and an RNLI helmsman. I said no because it is a knee jerk response made before all the facts have been told.

As I said the driver concerned may of had a PB2 or something similar.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Boycey

You can't drive a car without a licence

Actually many people do every single day, despite a licensing process and enforcement infrastructure. Its almost certain that more people will be killed by unlicensed and/or uninsured drivers this year than boats without kill cords. And that is an an environment with the infrastructure and systems in place to identify and enforce non compliance.

Originally Posted by HugoMS

For those of you who wish to impute wrong motives over our sticker campaign I wish to state the following:

I think I started that so lets discuss it!

Here at Powerboat and RIB we are shocked, saddened and deeply upset over the tragic accident that happened in Padstow and we are determined to do all that we can to increase awareness of safety measures and to educate so that we might be able to go some way to help prevent another horrifying accident.

OK but what made this one more serious than the others, so that there was an immediate response?

The reason we have used our logo is because we want to show that we care about this and that it carries a level of authority as having been designed and produced by people who know what they are talking about.

nobody really minds your small logo on the bottom - I wouldn't expect any different if it came from the engine maker, the RNLI or the RYA. However on the one hand you have produced a label and the other stated you think people should be prosecuted for not displaying such a label - your assumption seems to be that your label will meet any future requirements, otherwise I need to apply yours and change it when your hypothetical law arrives. Now if your label design had come about from lots of discussion with the RYA, MAIB, MCA, RNLI and other such bodies to try and come up with a good label design then expecting it to become industry standard might be reasonable. However rather than use international standards for warning signs etc you chose to go for your own style and then tell the world we should be prosecuted for not jumping on your band wagon. Don't be surprised if there is a backlash.

I think the RYA sticker you show in your attachement is actually more instructive than yours. However as with yours it is probably most likely to be used by those who already regularly use a cord. By all means lobby that engine makers provide a sticker for free with all engines, or that boat builders must mark all new consoles. I guess it depends who you think is easier to win over - your advertisers or your customers!

We are not in any way suggesting that 'our' sticker be an officially legislated sign, but that each vessel should be required to carry a suitable warning.

do you have any evidence that such a sign is likely to reduce casualty rates? Is it required in other countries with lower incidence? Is there an equivalent in other industries which shows it is effective - or is it just SOME response to a problem that costs people money (even if only postage) and yields little if any benefit.

As regards the thread concerning mandatory legislation and licencing, we are not suggesting this would stop all accidents or irresponsible behaviour, but if it helps to reduce such, it has to be worthwhile.

likewise is there any evidence that this would be the case. Intuitively it would, but a license could actually make things worse as people are entitled to drive it so assume they are competent.

The legislation does not need to be burdensome or costly, but rather good practice. Who would really mind having a one day basic course on a subject they have a love for in order to obtain a licence that helps them to be a better seaman and gets them off to a better start?

It is already widely accepted good practice. How do you believe a 1 day course is going to make people better seamen than existing training - a 1 day "license" will probably see fewer people doing a PB2 course - because they have 'ticked the box'. Who do you envisage doing this - everyone who helms or only 'somebody on board'? Have you really thought this through?

This is not a new topic, and has been widely debated over the last 20+ yrs in the industry. What changed in the last week that meant PB&R suddenly felt the need to publicly declare their stance. By all means open the debate - but you will see elsewhere that not everyone agrees with you. I don't subscribe to the "last of our liberties" or "freedom of the seas" rhetoric but I just can't believe that any scheme will increase safety and not increase cost.

Kill cord use will not dramatically increase if you make it law, because people either don't bother because they don't care (and have low risk of being caught at sea) or because they accidentally forget.

With your industry connections would either (or both) of these stances not be both easier to achieve and likely to yield the same net effect:

(1) Look at mandatory 3rd party insurance for powerboats (or all boats). Inevitably if there is correlation between risk and training, then underwriters would be able to offer financial incentives for appropriate training. It is much easier to manage boats coming on/off the water or in/out harbours/marinas than to know who is driving a boat and how out at sea.
(2) Encourage boat sales to focus on training, kill cord placement / design / labelling / engineering to make their use more effective / automatic. How many vendors selling a £20k+ boat include any training with it other than a basic handover.
(3) Refuse to publish any pictures or adverts where kill cords are not being worn.
(4) Provide advertising posters showing (visually as per cigarette packets) what happens if you don't wear a cord to harbours, marinas, slipways and clubs. I'm sure you could even put your logo on them to add that extra bit of "professional credibility".

If it turns out that:

(1) the accident last weekend was by someone who had been trained OR
(2) the kill cord was being worn but failed in some way / became detached

will you be dropping your campaign?

If next week there is a family killed "because" they don't have lifejackets on will you begin another campaign?