Compulsory licensing and mandatory kill cords? What do you think?

[Jimbob]

I suppose every year this comes up about training and kill cords,

every year we see issues with people not wearing them and the accidents that result, which i think is very say

i think people will always forget to wear them, after all history has proved this has it not

so, why not make sure the engine will not start or stop, if the hand is taken off the throttle or something like that, e.g some sort of of prevention better than a killcord

the simple exmaple i use is, in the old days people used to leave the petrol caps behind, but now they have a plastic strap you they do not. So maybe we need to apply the same FMEA analysis to outboards.

[Sixy_the_red]

Good, healthy debate folks, keep it up!

@ UK Matt - if you are the only person in the UK who's attitude towards kill cords has been changed by the tragedy in Padstow, then I recon that's a pretty positive outcome (sorry, terrible wording, but hopefully you see where I'm coming from)

Regarding the comparision between boating and driving, IMO the analogy just doesn't hold:

The road network relies on a significant level of cooperation between road users. I know it doesn't always feel like it, but think about it - if just one person decided that they were going to drive on the wrong side of the road there would be chaos. The system just wouldn't work.

At sea, with the exception maybe of the Solent during Cowes week, you can pretty much make your way without knowing of the col-regs - I can't remember the last time I had to use 'who has right of way when boat x is plotting one course and boat y is plotting an converging one'. Generally, if it's bigger than be or has sales I stay away!

Once you're out of the harbour, you might not even see another boat for hours (and let's face it, that's the point, isn't it?)

The same level of close cooperation just isn't required - a good dose of commom sense and a brain in your head usually does the trick.

Any form of legislation will lead to increased costs and more restriction.

At the moment there is basically no publicity at all regarding use of kill cords. A simple poster campaign and maybe even a TV ad campaign in coatal regions would be a good place to start. Then gauge reaction to see if anything further is even required.

[teamplonker]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

I haven't confused you with anyone and what I saw you doing in your vids was actually pretty sensible. However, if you push for legislation, it will apply to you as well. Don't expect it to allow you to continue the way you have been as the people who are allowing you to do what you've been doing will soon realise they can't allow it without being fined/hammered themselves.

A bit like the landlords getting fined/shut down if they don't call the police if someone lights up a cigarette in their pub. Not that there's any pubs left...

I think I understand where you are coming from and I used to be of a similar mind ( no one likes controls ) but over time you see many accidents luckily not as sad as this one and it makes you think that they could have been avoided with a little training.
I do not particulary want to be policed for not wearing a kc while I am on the water but if not legislation stopping untrained people to use the slipways or harbours around the coast could be a good start

[Solent Ranger]

Originally Posted by thomas

I had 4 takers on my offer just simple red letters to remind you - Offer still open for anyone that want one.

And I need new office signs as well!

[tonto]

Originally Posted by Anchorhandler

I'm quite convinced that its just scaremongering by people convinced that mandatory training is not required.

A few month ago both myself and fellow Rib.net member Tonto were involved in quite a spirited discussion on the subject of mandatory regulation. We both spend a very large percentage of the year on the water and can see better than most the issues caused by a lack of training.

Although i'm not in favour of a mandatory KC regulation i am and have been for some time now in favour of a mandatory minimum safety certificate which would need to be gained before anyone wishes to own a boat.

I would like to see it administered by the MCGA (Not the RYA) requireing only a day's classroom training but concentrating on basic safety at sea.

Sadly, from where i sit and with my viewpoint of the boating community, i believe we're losing the battle in trying to maintain or promote a safe boating mentality.

"Education not Legislation"?? OK, but i fear that more and more nowadays, people are needing a gently regulatory "nudge" in order to get educated.

Simon

Well said Simon.

I am not advocating a law on the wearing of a KC.

I absolutely believe there is a requirement for some form of compulsory basic training, and not only by the RYA, it could be offered by a number of training centers, or individuals, if MCA approved.

As for the comments that the vendors of boats should ensure the person buying the vessel has the correct training/instruction, that is going to be a no go. If I sell my rib privately, and the buyer then goes out and has an accident he is likely to say I did not train him properly, or check his training/qualifications...... not a good way to go.

With Compulsory basic traing, you have by default licensing.

There are a number of comments that say that traffic laws and traing do not stop deaths on roads, WHAT A LOAD OF TOSH! Imagine the carnage on the roads if there was no laws, or training at all! The training and laws REDUCE the deaths, and accidents, but cannot eliminate them.
I have spent a fair amount of time in the Far East, where training and enforcement of traffic laws are pretty informal, and they have horrendous death rates on the roads.

Traing, and education are the way to go, as well as experience, but in order for people to gain experience with some degree of safety, then training is needed.

A large number of members on here have already expressed that they have training, and most members on here are in agreement that KC should be worn, but there are thousands of small boat owners who are not members, and these are the ones we need to be targeting.

I hear the expression "Ebay boaters" or "Ebay specials" these are the people that need the education. If they need training before buying a boat, it might make things safer for other users.

I personally dont care if someone want to go out and kill themselves, BUT, when others are involved, as they always are, then you cannot just let people go out in a hostile and dangerous environment without some form of training.

Tonto

[Steve_B]

I admire the efforts of HMS on the availablity of stickers.
Education has to be the way forward and maybe the insurance companies requiring proof of such, in order to get cover or a discount for those that have sought education.

I'm a little confused by Ribbed41Pleasure. I also have a 9m RIB with the Mercury toggle switch and have in the last 3 years, covered the equivalent distance of 4 trans-Atlantic crossings. Not once have we had the killcord activate by accident and can move to either side of the helm consol without triggering it. Perhaps a picture of the layout might explain? We only secure it to the thigh via a dog collar
Steve

[thomas]

Originally Posted by Mick Balch

Hi Thomas - I will take one from you please and will send address in pm. if you could email the 'design' or wording I could get a whole lot priced up - without any reference to any commercial organisation and offer them to ribnet users, maybe?

Thank you

Nothing Fancy, just cut vinyl lettering, about 9 cms wide, they will come with application paper to transfer them.


David, I've got a sticker here for your boat, been down a few times to see Mark and popped round to see if you were about - I'll give you warning next time. Did you like the new MB signs?

[thommo]

I've seen sufficiant idiots bombing around in speedboats with no awareness of other waterusers (including running between swimmers off a busy beach) while I've been on rescue lookout duty that I have come around completely from my initial view to the idea of compulsory training for powerboat and jestski users. It really doesn't take that long to get a PB2 cert, and next to the cost of learning to drive it's negligable. Insurance is another thing that should definitely be compulsory in my view.

[Dirk Diggler]

Originally Posted by thommo

I've seen sufficiant idiots bombing around in speedboats .

Oi, what's with the speedboat reference, this latest incident was a RHIB ! There's idiots in all types of boating, not just us "speedboaters".

It's all very sad what happened at the weekend, but I am a little suprised at the media attention that it's receiving, perhaps due to a slow news weekend.

Anybody remember the incident at the 2010 Southampton Boat Show, involving a demo boat, dealer and not using the killcord which resulted in 1 fatality.

[Onboard]

Originally Posted by biffer

You can dress things up and put stickers all over your boat, it won't stop accidents or boats killing people, it's a sad fact of life, cigarettes packets have stickers all over them and it doesn't stop a thing

A refreshing blast of common sense courtesy of Biff - If you ever consider running for Parliament, you'd get my vote !

[chewy]

Originally Posted by abduls friend

I'm not responding as an RNLI spokesperson, but my understanding is where fitted on RIBs SIBs with wheel steering, killcords are worn. Where tiller steering, if killcords fitted, they are worn. However, some engines used in smaller craft have tiller throttles which are designed to kill if released.

RNLI Atlantic's aren't fitted with killcords and the last time I was on a D class that wasn't.

[thomas]

We're all buggered then, although I do find myself slowing down when I see a sticker on a post saying '30' but I guess there are quite a few that don't.

[Cookee]

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All absolutely fantastic - if it's such an obvious answer to the problems discussed in this thread why aren't any manufacturers taking it up, surely and increase in thrust, power, and overall performance for all propeller-driven vessels is exactly what every manufacturer wants?

Or maybe there's a cost/return issue?

[Anchorhandler]

Originally Posted by Anchorhandler

Hi Cookee

I'm quite convinced that its just scaremongering by people convinced that mandatory training is not required.

I'm reasonably well tuned into the French boating scene as not only do i spend all my time boating over here but the brother in law is also a crewmember for the SNSM.

There is a much bigger maritime police presence on the water over here than in the UK. A lot of French complain about the regulation and random stop-checks by the maritime patrols but at the end of the day you have to ask yourself this.....how many defects and issues would we find in the UK if random stop-checks were introduced? We (very) often hear about boats running around with no lifejackets on board, no (or defective) VHF, no flares etc....

A few month ago both myself and fellow Rib.net member Tonto were involved in quite a spirited discussion on the subject of mandatory regulation. We both spend a very large percentage of the year on the water and can see better than most the issues caused by a lack of training.
Last year i spent the hourly equivalent of roughly 7.5 months non stop in the waters of the Solent and can recount some truly dismal and ignarant boating behaviour. (I've posted pics of some of them).

Although i'm not in favour of a mandatory KC regulation i am and have been for some time now in favour of a mandatory minimum safety certificate which would need to be gained before anyone wishes to own a boat.

I would like to see it administered by the MCGA (Not the RYA) requireing only a day's classroom training but concentrating on basic safety at sea.

Sadly, from where i sit and with my viewpoint of the boating community, i believe we're losing the battle in trying to maintain or promote a safe boating mentality.

"Education not Legislation"?? OK, but i fear that more and more people nowadays are needing a gently regulatory "nudge" in order to get educated.

Simon

Here's how i would like to see things progress.....

The MCGA put into place a simple one day training course, as mentioned in my previous post. The curriculum would focus nearly purely on "safety at sea". Accidents like the Padstow incident could be discussed (along with many other accidents) to highlight the importance of KC's, lifejackets etc... The course would be funded nearly entirely by the governmen requireing only a minor contribution to be made by the attendee's. A certificate would be issued and the attendee's name entered onto a database.

The course would be voluntary for the first few years on the proviso that legislation will be introduced a few years later preventing the sale of any vessel (*), both new and used to any person not holding the MCGA safety certificate. The HIN nuber of the vessel sold would then also be entered into the MCGA database, cross referenced to the owners certificate number.

Pre-existing RYA certificate holders would be granted a "certificate of equal competency" status alowing them to purchase a boat based on their RYA quals.

A phase in period would be introduced on all used vessel being sold on the private market. this period would give time for owners to either attend the MCGA course or register their RYA quals along with their vessels HIN. At the end of the phase-in perios it would be an offence to own any vessel (*) without having attended the course.

This would allow a gradual "acceptance" of the regulation by both the boating industry and the public as a whole.

Enforcement could take place through several means ....HM's could request a copy of the certificate when dealing with berth bookings, Harbour authorities could perform random stop-checks and ask for a copy of the certificate (to be carried on board at all times by the boat owner) etc...

Penalty for non compliance would be a fine issues by the Harbour authority but capped at a maximum set by the MCGA.

It's not a perfect system and obviously would require some fine tuning but the wheels are already in motion for harbour authorities to issue fines so at least that's one things out the way.

One thing it would do though is very gradually educate people to the potential dangers of taking to sea.

Simon

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by Cookee

All absolutely fantastic - if it's such an obvious answer to the problems discussed in this thread why aren't any manufacturers taking it up, surely and increase in thrust, power, and overall performance for all propeller-driven vessels is exactly what every manufacturer wants?

Or maybe there's a cost/return issue?

Or maye he's a dealer trying to make a buck out of this.

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by Anchorhandler

Here's how i would like to see things progress.....

The MCGA put into place a simple one day training course, as mentioned in my previous post. The curriculum would focus nearly purely on "safety at sea". Accidents like the Padstow incident could be discussed (along with many other accidents) to highlight the importance of KC's, lifejackets etc... The course would be funded nearly entirely by the governmen requireing only a minor contribution to be made by the attendee's. A certificate would be issued and the attendee's name entered onto a database.

The course would be voluntary for the first few years on the proviso that legislation will be introduced a few years later preventing the sale of any vessel (*), both new and used to any person not holding the MCGA safety certificate. The HIN nuber of the vessel sold would then also be entered into the MCGA database, cross referenced to the owners certificate number.

Pre-existing RYA certificate holders would be granted a "certificate of equal competency" status alowing them to purchase a boat based on their RYA quals.

A phase in period would be introduced on all used vessel being sold on the private market. this period would give time for owners to either attend the MCGA course or register their RYA quals along with their vessels HIN. At the end of the phase-in perios it would be an offence to own any vessel (*) without having attended the course.

This would allow a gradual "acceptance" of the regulation by both the boating industry and the public as a whole.

Enforcement could take place through several means ....HM's could request a copy of the certificate when dealing with berth bookings, Harbour authorities could perform random stop-checks and ask for a copy of the certificate (to be carried on board at all times by the boat owner) etc...

Penalty for non compliance would be a fine issues by the Harbour authority but capped at a maximum set by the MCGA.

It's not a perfect system and obviously would require some fine tuning but the wheels are already in motion for harbour authorities to issue fines so at least that's one things out the way.

One thing it would do though is very gradually educate people to the potential dangers of taking to sea.

Simon

So, you'd like to see compulsory registration and so on as well?


I really fail to understand this 'need to progress' mentality. It aint broke. Don't fix it.

[Dirk Diggler]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

So, you'd like to see compulsory registration and so on as well?
.

Certainly seems like it.

As a boatbuilder, that all sounds like a real crap idea, and I can't see how it would work. You surely can't be suggesting that you'd like to make it illegal to own a boat without the necessary paperwork.

It's a hard enough time to be selling boats at the moment, without some half arsed crackpot scheme being brought in to make it even more difficult. Besides, owning and operating are 2 entirely different things. I know several people who own very high performance craft, one of which is a 100+ mph powerboat, and he's never driven it, but is happy to be a passenger.

[michael1234]

Lets ask ourselves . Would you give a F1 car to a learner driver?

If not then why can a novice pilot buy and use a V6 300 hp outboard without any training whatsoever?

It's not rocket science really is it ?

[demondesmond]

Wow,
this is a good thread albeit in sad circumstances.........I am surprised at some of the opinions though!

I guess the big question is, "how do WE as leisure boaters try to stop this happening again?" Assuming no kill cord failure, I suppose to answer at least part of that question we have to ask "what is a kill cord for?" and, if the manufacturer fits one as a safety device "why would you not wear one?". If WE as the leisure boating community cannot self police the correct wearing of a kill cord then legislation has to happen. I grant that in these cash strapped times that there is no guarentee that there will be sufficient funds to provide effective policing but at least the framework would be in place to provide some deterrent.
As for compulsory training.......It always baffled me that you can go out and operate a potentialy lethal machine in close proximity to other people with no training whatsoever. Combine the above and, at present legislation would seem the obvious answer.

Des

PS.... If pure education/training is the answer then I see no harm in anyone producing a sticker with whatever organisations logo they want.....so long as it gets the message across. Wouldn't you say?

[Anchorhandler]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

So, you'd like to see compulsory registration and so on as well?


I really fail to understand this 'need to progress' mentality. It aint broke. Don't fix it.

Not broken?

As someone who spends a heck of a lot of time on "the front line" i would quite strenuously argue that it"s not quite as fine and dandy out there as you think it is.

Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler

Certainly seems like it.

As a boatbuilder, that all sounds like a real crap idea, and I can't see how it would work. You surely can't be suggesting that you'd like to make it illegal to own a boat without the necessary paperwork.

It's a hard enough time to be selling boats at the moment, without some half arsed crackpot scheme being brought in to make it even more difficult. Besides, owning and operating are 2 entirely different things. I know several people who own very high performance craft, one of which is a 100+ mph powerboat, and he's never driven it, but is happy to be a passenger.

With all due respect, your living in a dream world.... i suppose that people are discouraged to go out and buy a motorcycle because they have to do a seperate licence?

the "half arsed crackpot scheme" i mentioned would only cost a fraction of the cost of doing the CBT let alonr the full licence!

UK motorcycle sales show positive trend - Motorcycle news: Industry - Visordown

Wake up people.... things need to change and the sooner you all pull your heads out of that bucket of sand the sooner we can work towards a solution that is accepted by all party's involved.

Simon