Compulsory licensing and mandatory kill cords? What do you think?

[SolarisRIB]

Is it known whether the Cobra driver in Padstow had completed a Powerboat course or not? It's presumptuous to assume he was unlicensed. Kill cord switches have been known to fail and need regular checking. It's also possible that the kill cord was in use but failed to operate. Best wait for the result of the investigation to be published before expressing opinions or calling for legislation.

[Boatnomad]

For me it goes without saying you should wear a Kill cord.After something like Patstow there is always some self appointed "expert" shouting from on high (great spotlight for them) about rules and more rules,always someone wants to make a rule,till eventually after a long time,what George O wrote in Barnhill.................
Things at Sea always have happened,always will,if not one way then another.I would say the man who owned that Cobra was nobody's fool, but the sea is nobody's friend!.

[Rokraider]

I think this poll should be broken down further on the questions. Mandatory licence to drive a powerboat should be a separate question to the mandatory kill cord.

[paddlers]

From my own experience of this type of knee-jerk legislation involving deer-stalking and bearing in mind it involves rifles which can throw a bullet five miles some of the most dangerous incidents have involved some of the most (paper) 'qualified' individuals !!!
A few people have got very wealthy giving courses & a lot of people consider themselves 'safe' having got a two day 'qualification'. It started as a voluntary course and became mandatory a few years back. Started off a few quid, now costs hundreds & they keep adding to it with new levels & more expense.
Do we really want this in what is basically a hobby that we can enjoy when we get the chance? By all means educate & encourage but once you start down the legislation route we're all buggered......
Anybody fancy racing hens ??

[raymillard]

This accident at Padstow hasn't yet been fully investigated, so there shouldn't be an uninformed kneejerk reaction.
Authority loves to regulate, because authority knows that if you throw in enough regulation, people will just give up on the activity.
To try and put a bit of perspective on it, this accident is sad, is tragic, and has made the populist headlines. Accidents involving private aircraft grab similar publicity. And yet: how many people are killed in car accidents daily? Driving and vehicle safety are both highly regulated and policed, but accidents still happen.
True, more people drive cars than drive boats, but regulation and licensing won't help. Only education and awareness will.
I come from a generation of people who grew up with freedom: I have messed about in boats since I was 9. I'm 66 now and still messing about in boats. As a young man, I didn't need insurance; nor did I need qualifications (I have both now); my boat didn't need a certificate of compliance............
And yet, I bet there were no more accidents 60 years ago than there are now in our regulated and restricted society.
Let's not let the powers that be tie our hands in reaction to one, albeit very sad, accident.

[seizethemoment]

Education - not legislation

I have a kayak. I have a rib capable of 35 knots.
I enjoy the freedom and lack of legislation they both give me equally but in different ways.
Believe it or not I consider I need to apply the same amount of common sense when using either boat.
From the huge range of comments I read on this subject one common factor seems to come through.
Everyone posting a response is capable of three things:
GIVING GOOD, HELPFUL AND FRIENDLY ADVICE to those who need it.
SHOWING COMMON SENSE AND COURTESY to all other water users
ENCOURAGING other water users to take advantage of specific training opportunities

I think, if we all make an extra effort to try and educate the people that so many posts simply refer to as idiots, we would be doing our bit to make the water a safer place for ourselves and others.

[boristhebold]

I agree with some other members on here about the Poll questions, Ive voted for education rather than regulation and fines just because only two options, if I had the choice I would have voted for regulation in terms of needing to have say a PB2 qualification before being allowed to operate a leisure boat of a certain size or power but havnt thought of all the angles around the size or power question, it would also allow a non PB2 certfied person to drive the boat if the PB2 certified person was present. Would not effect commercial operators who allready have certain legislation to deal with.

So I think the poll questions wont give the desired clarity of view from users.

I would not be in favour of finning people not using a kill cord as in reality it would be unenforceable as there isnt the man power or the will to patrol the harbors and seas to acomplish that. When you think about tehre are speed limits in poole harbour for example and rules etc and no one is ever prosecuted for speeding. so point made.

As to mandatory use of the sticker ... second word is OFF and first word you can work out. I have a brain and can remember to tie something bright red thats dangling against my leg and flapping about. (just read last paragraph back, that sounds a tad oo er misses)

Anyway its good to talk about the issues im glad some people are trying to do something positive from a nasty incident so all the best.

[Dr.Ullman]

Thousand of lives have been saved by laws making safety belts compulsory in cars.
Kill cord is good practice and they who don't understand that might use it anyway if is made compulsory. Is for the safety of not just driver.

In last two years at least half a dozen accidents have occurred with ejection as result of chine tripping. In a number of these people were killed.

It likely that chine tripping can have caused even the last accident.

The kill cord wont prevent chine tripping or ejection but it will prevent boat from coming back to hit the ejected in the water.

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by Rokraider

I think this poll should be broken down further on the questions. Mandatory licence to drive a powerboat should be a separate question to the mandatory kill cord.

It's a bit late now unfortunately and the mechanics of the poll mean that it'd skew the results as those that have already voted can't vote again.

[bobatporty]

Once again the knee jerk society have already come up with the cause of the accident although the offical enquiry has not been completed.
The cost of living is getting out of hand and owning and running a boat is simply a very expensive luxury without having more red tape and taxes added to the cost.
There was a picture of the kill cord on the RIB involved in the accident, and it looked very stretched out to me, so perhaps there was a fault with the kill cord itself.
Leave it to the experts to sort out and find out what went wrong and stop jumping to ill conceived theories.
People who come up with these ideas are full of their own importance, They should disappear off to india or China and start implimenting heath and safety rules over there and see how far they get.

[ssobol]

I haven't read through all the posts on this topic (there are a lot of them), but if this guy was driving a car with his family in it and he overturned it on the side of the road and he and his kid were killed because they weren't wearing seat belts, would we even be discussing it?

There are plenty of laws requiring seat belt use and seat belts have been demonstrated to improve safety, but if they weren't wearing them we'd say it's their own fault and be done with it. There'd not be any discussion that the seat belt laws need to be changed or enforcement stepped up because of one incident.

I think that a person who uses a boat/car/plane should be responsible for his/her own actions and suffer any consequences that result from their own poor decisions. However, if in this case the boat had run away and hit some uninvolved party down the river somewhere, then you may have a case for changing the laws or regulations.

In the case of this accident, it is made more news worthy because the boat circled over the victims multiple times (and some big shot was involved). If the boat had happened to go straight (or perhaps even larger circles) it would have ended up aground pretty quickly because of the geography of the estuary the accident occurred in and perhaps no one would have been seriously injured. After the initial upset, the accident was compounded by very bad luck indeed.

P.S. You could even make the argument that it is better for a runaway boat to circle tightly rather than run straight to contain it and therefore by regulation require the helm on all boats to be spring loaded in one direction to ensure circling if the helm is unattended. Shouldn't be a problem in normal operation because you always have at least on hand on the helm at all times, right?

[azzurro]

I would not make it mandatory. Education?
Just walkin' Spanish.
Keelhaulin' I mean.
Go start that engine.
Better than education.

[bobatporty]

It's news worthy because it was a rich bloke, otherwise it wouldn't have hardly been mentioned.

[simonnud]

Originally Posted by Anchorhandler

Not broken?

As someone who spends a heck of a lot of time on "the front line" i would quite strenuously argue that it"s not quite as fine and dandy out there as you think it is.




With all due respect, your living in a dream world.... i suppose that people are discouraged to go out and buy a motorcycle because they have to do a seperate licence?

the "half arsed crackpot scheme" i mentioned would only cost a fraction of the cost of doing the CBT let alonr the full licence!

UK motorcycle sales show positive trend - Motorcycle news: Industry - Visordown

Wake up people.... things need to change and the sooner you all pull your heads out of that bucket of sand the sooner we can work towards a solution that is accepted by all party's involved.

Simon

So if it terns out the guy had a PB2 will you change your mind?

[Chris Caton]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Caton
Hmmmmmm....... don't think one of these will gracing our rib console anytime soon

Originally Posted by C2 RIBS

We use similar ones we got from RNLI,

I am unsure on why there is such an anti feel towards a commercial mag seller who
is trying to help people save their lives. Yes the timing is directly after a tragedy but actually what better time than to focus our minds on basic skills and basic survival options. Everyone can choose not to use on, buy one, obtain one and will continue to make their own decisions on their safety.
Clearly from the position of what operators were reporting this weekend on many forums, within 24-48hrs of the deaths, the advice was ignored anyway and loads were out without using them.

I believe other companies such as RYA do similar stickers and they have their logos on the sticker.

sorry to sound a touch negative on what is an important issue, but last time I looked no one had contributed anything towards the cost of our rib when we bought it, apart from my mate Jeff who donated £5, so anyone who thinks that they can tell me what goes on the console and what doesn't is in for a hard time, so off and mind your own business!

As for HMS and PBRM, the only reason they have any weight to a discussion they wish to take part in is due to the number of readers they can quote read the mag. If they do decide to take this further, then I won't be reading the mag any more. If HMS wishes to do so as a concerned boater, then that's a different matter, but I have no wish for HMS or PBRM to represent my views, especially without at least first asking my opinion.

I know my thoughts will just create more views, but to be honest that' s not my concern. I always use the kill cord on our rib, apart from when I forget, doesn't happen often but it does happen. If I wish to fit a reminder to attach the kill cord then I will do so, but I won't be told what to do. If my some miracle this does become a requirement by some sort of legislation, then I guess someone will have to catch me out first. My dad was a policeman for 25 years, one of his by lines was "the law only applies to law abiding people", I guess the vast majority of those on RIBNET are law abiding, and also like me use their kill cords. Who is going to apply any legislation to all those who do use their kill cords, lets have patrols on the water all round the UK and all those who have insurance can pay a bit extra for it, the same people who have insurance will have also most likely done at least their PB2 as well, so have already spent money. Those who don't bother with insurance now, probably still won't bother if it's mandatory and won't bother with the kill cords either. I know I'm rambling, I'm blaming the chemotherapy, only a few weeks to go now!! If you think I'm talking crap, that's up to you, just think about how many drivers there are who have no driving licence, insurance or MOT, if the police do manage to catch them when they get to court its a slap on the wrist and a cup of tea, so why should I get an on the spot fine for not attaching a kill cord??

lets not forget the family left devastated by last weekends accident, but lets remember them by just using our kill cords

[tony g]

Every body that drives a boat should at least do RYA level one. Kill cords should be worn but as for fines im not sure.

[Alan H]

Darwinism will sort out the ones that don't use them.
We have enough big brother in this country without being legislated more in our leisure time.
It would just be another excuse to tax/licence/rip off the public.
Leave it alone, let the idiots die, and then we buy their boat cheaply and run it safely.

[HughN]

Whilst noting that any accidental death is tragic, HMS stated "19 fatalities in 4 years". This will be less than 19 distinct incidents because some of these involved incidents with more than one fatality, but lets go for a rate of 5 fatalities a year and make a comparison.

In 2010:

* 3 people died as a result of dog bites
* 7 people died as a result of being bitten by 'other mammals'
* 3 people died as a result of falling into swimming pools
* 5 people died as a result of accidental suffocation in bed
* 17 people died as a result of contact with heat or hot substances (including barbecues, I assume)
* 5 people died as a result of contact with wasps, hornets or bees
* 6 people died due to lack of food.
* 9 people died as a result of falling from cliffs
* 6 women died as a result of a fall from a ladder
* 29 people died after drowning in the bath.

Shall we introduce mandatory training for barbecues at the point of sale, classes for bed-making and fence in all swimming-pools and cliffs?

We oughtn't limit our altruism by familiarity with Ribs: lets include all vessels, including sailing boats - after all, they can be large, move quickly, have limited capabilities for changing of direction/speed and generally go out in windy conditions. They don't, for instance, slice in front of oil tankers...

Would it be flawed to suggest that anyone over 35 tends to be more capable of assessing risk than people under 35 who have generally been surrounded by Health and Safety?

[thomas]

Originally Posted by bobatporty

It's news worthy because it was a rich bloke, otherwise it wouldn't have hardly been mentioned.

Poor people make the news too, not quite sure where money fits in, whenever kids are involved a story will hit the headline.

[russbusa]

I'm sick and tired of do gooders trying to legislate, this government of ours takes away, charges and taxes our civil liberties on a daily basis, volunteering for any legislation is sure to incur extra cost . IF prior to this sad accident legislation had been in place can we be sure that even then that the kill cord would have been used ?
Education, education, education. Keep it voluntary or you will drive people away from this hobby.
The person in charge of this rib was not inexperienced, if it turns out to be the kill cord not being used then no amount of legislation or training would have prevented this tragic event.