Compulsory production of insurance?

[roohairy]

Hi,

I have to pass through a harbour to get to my berth upriver. The harbour has a harbour master, who has recently been asking all vessels passing through to produce insurance documents.

As far as I know, there is no legal requirement to have insurance at all on the high seas, and the harbour master has no right to obtain copies of every pleasure vessel's insurance.

Any comments or observations?

Before I get swamped with replies, I do have insurance, just don't see why I should have to carry it or produce it.

Roohairy

[Louise]

A quick google produced this which says it is compulsory to hold at least third-party insurance to use a boat in UK waters. Seems quite reasonable to me - after all, you'd be a bit fed up if someone witnessed a boat crash into your boat and then you found out they didn't have insurance.

Edit: I think harbours/inland waters are subject to by-laws, so even if you are not required to have insurance for the 'high seas', insurance is often (always?) needed in ports and rivers. Look like Polwart beat me to it during my editing!

[Poly]

There is no legal requirement on the "high seas" as you say - but the harbour is not the "high seas" - and may have its own local bylaws/legislation.

You do have insurance - and ideally you want everyone else to have insurance too (so if they damage you it can be made good at their expense) - so laminating a copy and keeping it on board is not really a major chore. I suspect that if you are using the water regularly you will become known to them and will stop getting asked (or at least not so often).

[Roy Smith]

I think its great the harbour master is asking for insurance
he knows who is who on the water and as much as i do not like the big brother
approach , it will stop the morons/small percentage of boater/jet ski
who seam to spoil it for the other 90% of us who have insurance and try to
do thing half right.My opinion what what its worth is
Your Boat. jet ski, by law should be registered to you with a sort of ssr number on the side, and that you should have to do some sort of course, Last week we where coming back into Chichester harbour towards Itchnor when a small
15ft speed boat asked us which way is it to the sea Mate !
Sorry but the voluntary thing just dose not work.

[roohairy]

Originally Posted by Polwart

There is no legal requirement on the "high seas" as you say - but the harbour is not the "high seas" - and may have its own local bylaws/legislation.

You do have insurance - and ideally you want everyone else to have insurance too (so if they damage you it can be made good at their expense) - so laminating a copy and keeping it on board is not really a major chore. I suspect that if you are using the water regularly you will become known to them and will stop getting asked (or at least not so often).

The harbour is on a tidal river, which extends well beyond the harbour limits and is still tidal. The harbour is used by a handfull of commercial vessels only and the management seems to be very anti leisure use - demanding copies of insurance to hold on file I believe is beyond reasonable.

Insurance is a question of scale - my 22' boat is insured, my 8' rowing boat is not! How many uninsured tenders are there in the UK, should insurance be compulsory for these also? How about canoes?

Or can the harbour authority ban a vessel from transiting the area because the vessel does not have an insurance certificate with them?

I feel that this is the 'thin end of the wedge' leading to ever more regulation!

Also in relaton to louise's link, I think that they are referring to inland waterways and even this is not correct - it depends on the navigation authority.

[Roy Smith]

Originally Posted by roohairy

The harbour is on a tidal river, which extends well beyond the harbour limits and is still tidal. The harbour is used by a handfull of commercial vessels only and the management seems to be very anti leisure use - demanding copies of insurance to hold on file I believe is beyond reasonable.

Insurance is a question of scale - my 22' boat is insured, my 8' rowing boat is not! How many uninsured tenders are there in the UK, should insurance be compulsory for these also? How about canoes?

Or can the harbour authority ban a vessel from transiting the area because the vessel does not have an insurance certificate with them?

I feel that this is the 'thin end of the wedge' leading to ever more regulation!

Also in relaton to louise's link, I think that they are referring to inland waterways and even this is not correct - it depends on the navigation authority.

Why not have compulsory insurance, if you buy a new tv you have to fill out the form so the nice man in the tv detector van can check on you.
If you buy a car you cant tax it unless you have insurance. i think the training is very important. you would not let a person on the road with out training
and when you put in the variables like weather, tides, and knowing where the
rocks or sand banks are, it seams like a disaster waiting to happen to let some one out just because its there right to do so.
Dose any one know how many times the GG where called out last year
not because a yacht was demasted or some one hit a submerged object
but because some pratt tried to do a channel crossing and thought that if he just went straight ahead from the beach he would hit France eventually

[jwalker]

Originally Posted by Roy Smith

Why not have compulsory insurance, if you buy a new tv you have to fill out the form so the nice man in the tv detector van can check on you.
If you buy a car you cant tax it unless you have insurance. i think the training is very important. you would not let a person on the road with out training
and when you put in the variables like weather, tides, and knowing where the
rocks or sand banks are, it seams like a disaster waiting to happen to let some one out just because its there right to do so.
Dose any one know how many times the GG where called out last year
not because a yacht was demasted or some one hit a submerged object
but because some pratt tried to do a channel crossing and thought that if he just went straight ahead from the beach he would hit France eventually

Please explain to me what that rant has to do with marine insurance?

[PeterM]

I can see the annoyance in getting asked repeatedly , but can you not take some steps to try & get to know the guys stopping you better? I would try & get in touch with them on a really bad weather day ( Im sure one will will pop up - oh its today ! ) when they are sat around go & talk to them take some pics of your boat & the docs offer to give them a copy to hold on file offer them a spin etc.

Hopefully this will mean when they see you they will just wave & say hi, knowing who you are & that you are all 'above board' - a second advantage coudl be if some git steals the boat & is seen by them they will think - ' thats not right ? whos that ? etc & then hopefully challenge them.

I am not saying that insurance should be compulsory but I can only compare being asked to show something for the boat as the same as getting stopped at by the police at 3.30am driving home - they are just trying to find the gits that coudl have nicked your car 10 mins earlier. If your nice & are above board it takes a few minutes & everyone is happy. If we moan & complain then insurance, registration etc WILL become compulsory & everything only then gets worse & more expensive.

[Roy Smith]

Originally Posted by jwalker

Please explain to me what that rant has to do with marine insurance?

Iam not ranting
I am just making the point that most harbor masters will not know who owns what boat and if indeed they are capable of using it.
They are asking for insurance (I think) to match up owners to boats
the point being if you had to registrar your boat by law then the reg number
that you would have to display would give all the details the harbour master needed and
you probably would not get stopped.
Most insurances i have seen ask if you have Rya 1 & 2 etc.
Sorry if its sounds like a rant,just seams that in this time of having to have a license for really stupid little things, it seams strange that you could buy a
60 ft Sun seeker and take it to sea with no insurance or qualifications to helm it.

[SDGANDER]

Interested to know which harbour and which river?

SDG

[roohairy]

Originally Posted by Roy Smith

Iam not ranting
I am just making the point that most harbor masters will not know who owns what boat and if indeed they are capable of using it.
They are asking for insurance (I think) to match up owners to boats
the point being if you had to registrar your boat by law then the reg number
that you would have to display would give all the details the harbour master needed and
you probably would not get stopped.
Most insurances i have seen ask if you have Rya 1 & 2 etc.
Sorry if its sounds like a rant,just seams that in this time of having to have a license for really stupid little things, it seams strange that you could buy a
60 ft Sun seeker and take it to sea with no insurance or qualifications to helm it.

The point is, rightly or wrongly, (different debate) that at this moment in time under law, there is no need to register boats or owners, no requirement to insure them other than on certain (most) inland waterways, and I don't think (might be wrong) that the harbour master in question can stop a vessel transitting the harbour if it does not have insurance.

I don't want to say where this is or turn it into a personal tirade against the location in question, this was supposed to be a more 'in principle' discussion - I don't like the idea of having my insureance held on record when I don't think that there is any justification for doing so other than documenting river users.

Also I think that the liberties that we do have in this country should be protected for such a time as we do have them, and not be allowed to be infringed by officials who would like to see the law changed to suit their mandate - if the people responsible believe that this information should be colected and held then change the law first, they shouldn't make unillateral demands because they don'l like the current rules!

[Poly]

Originally Posted by roohairy

The harbour is on a tidal river, which extends well beyond the harbour limits and is still tidal.

Yes but there are many tidal waters which are covered by local bye laws.

The harbour is used by a handfull of commercial vessels only and the management seems to be very anti leisure use -

quite possibly - you presumably contribute little to the costs but add to their complications

demanding copies of insurance to hold on file I believe is beyond reasonable.

actually doesn't seem at all unreasonable to me. Some HA require you to get permission to transit their area via VHF beforehand (for every trip/movement), others have fairly strict speed limits. If the rules require you to have insurance, being able to demonstrate that is hardly an unreasonable request.

Insurance is a question of scale - my 22' boat is insured, my 8' rowing boat is not! How many uninsured tenders are there in the UK, should insurance be compulsory for these also? How about canoes?

well it will depend on the H.A. byelaws. Often insurance is expected only for vessels of a certain size or power driven vesels over certain HP. Actually your rowing boat has the potential to cause a large ship to take avoiding action (to save your life)and that action may result in damage to the vessel or result in polution. Thats what the HM is concerned about.

Or can the harbour authority ban a vessel from transiting the area because the vessel does not have an insurance certificate with them?

possibly - you need to ask the HA for a copy of their byelaws.

I feel that this is the 'thin end of the wedge' leading to ever more regulation!

possibly - but its unlikely to be new rules, HAs have had these sorts of powers for a very long time.

[pvm]

I think roohairy is talking about the civil liberties/freedom from excessive authority aspect.

Why not tell the harbourfuhrer that you wish to be left alone unharrassed and see what he does.

He may just be enjoying being a big boss in control of all these rich folks in their boats, and may have no authority at all to demand sight of insurance documents.

pvm

ps. again, I am not advocating being uninsured. it is about freedom of movement without excessive harrassment.