Dfi/ tcw3/ multipurpose outboard 2 stroke oil.

[fastasfox]

I have just ordered 10 litres of Quicksilver Dfi oil and with a 5% discount, it's come in at £12.50 per litre.

I looked at the Tcw3 oil and that comes in at around £8.50 per litre.

My old clamshell mariner used to run a general 2 stroke oil by mannol and that cost's around £ 3.80 per litre

All these prices are correct...UK July 24 and are based on buying a bulk 10 litre tub.

£ 12.50 per litre.....wow that is expensive oil.
I'm aware that regular 2 stroke oil is differ ent from dci oil and whilst dci outboards will run on regular 2 stroke oil I imagine it wouldn't be too long before you would get problems....big problems.

What I'm less sure on is how direct injection 2 stroke outboards run on Tcw3 oil.
Apparently Mercury themselves recommends using Tcw3 oil if Dfi (optimax oil) is not available..as stated in the owner's manual ( in the US at least)
I believe that in most cases you get what you pay for but I have to satisfy myself that I'm not just a another suckered in a marketing ploy.

And that's why I'm turning to you.
Do you run a Dfi 2 stroke outboard? Do you run an Optimax? What oil do you use? how long have you used it for?
Run them,work on them ,sell them ?

Thoughts please.

[willk]

I'm going to give you a RIBnet Classic Answer. It won't answer your question and will skirt around the subject a little. It might help, it might not, please don't be offended if you already know some or all of this:

"Standard 2 stroke" can mean a few things. I'm sure you know that the vast majority of outboards require 2 stroke specific to their water cooled design - typically TC-W3. You'll know not to use motorcycle 2 stroke or the kind sold for power tools.

DI engines are more complicated again. I ran a pair of Evinrude Etecs - they were DI and "required" Evinrude's XD100 2 stroke magic oil - unless you reprogramed them to run on TC-W3 (aka Evinrude's silly expensive XD50). So yeah - there is a splash of snake oil going on. My own guess is that the top level DI oils are mixed to run leaner. Someone who knows about Optis will be able to advise if a similar arrangement exists in Mercuryland.

[neil.mccrirrick]

I’ve always used rock oil mp3 ultra in my optimax. Made for dfi engines

https://rockoil.co.uk/products/mp3-ultra/

[Pikey Dave]

Does it sound good?

[willk]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

Does it sound good?

When it's Streaming out...

[fastasfox]

Originally Posted by willk

I'm going to give you a RIBnet Classic Answer. It won't answer your question and will skirt around the subject a little. It might help, it might not, please don't be offended if you already know some or all of this:

"Standard 2 stroke" can mean a few things. I'm sure you know that the vast majority of outboards require 2 stroke specific to their water cooled design - typically TC-W3. You'll know not to use motorcycle 2 stroke or the kind sold for power tools.

DI engines are more complicated again. I ran a pair of Evinrude Etecs - they were DI and "required" Evinrude's XD100 2 stroke magic oil - unless you reprogramed them to run on TC-W3 (aka Evinrude's silly expensive XD50). So yeah - there is a splash of snake oil going on. My own guess is that the top level DI oils are mixed to run leaner. Someone who knows about Optis will be able to advise if a similar arrangement exists in Mercuryland.

Apparently, as you have stated , the Dfi oil is especially blended to burn lean to prevent emissions ( American market) but at the end of the day it's still just two stroke oil.....and I'm not sure at £12.50 per litre that could look consumers in the eye and tell them it is priced per its value.

I have always used a dedicated marine two stroke oil for my other outboards and yes I understood there was a difference between a normal two stroke oil and an outboard dedicated oil...although for the life of me I couldn't tell you what that difference is.

[willk]

Originally Posted by fastasfox

...a difference between a normal two stroke oil and an outboard dedicated oil...although for the life of me I couldn't tell you what that difference is.

My basic understanding is that watercooled outboards run cooler than aircooled 2 strokes. Some basic outboards were (maybe still are) aircooled and so chainsaw oil is appropriate. Speaking of chainsaws, many moons ago I used motorcycle 2 stroke on some garden kit I had, with poor results. Apparently the fancypants oil for chainsaws is Superior...

[fastasfox]

Originally Posted by neil.mccrirrick

I’ve always used rock oil mp3 ultra in my optimax. Made for dfi engines

https://rockoil.co.uk/products/mp3-ultra/

£11 per litre, better but still expensive don't you think.

[fastasfox]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

Does it sound good?

I'm surprised how much quieter it is than my clamshell.

But at the moment it is punctuated by a beeeeep every now and then.....but I suspect it's the oil level sensor...I'm led to believe they are sensitive. I will give it another run next weekend when I can fill the oil bottle up.

[willk]

Originally Posted by fastasfox

£11 per litre, better but still expensive don't you think.

He clearly feels it's worth the difference. Maybe only for piece of mind? It's entirely possible that you've cracked some global marketing conspiracy here, or then again, perhaps DI oils are blended a little differently to standard TC-W3, IIRC it's a fairly basic standard. I remember a French bloke on here who had a mate working for ELF who could blend up oils to any standard, he was planning to do a run of homer XD100 at the time. FYI I entirely agree with you, it's patently overpriced but what can you do except minimise the cost by shopping for a bargain. Do you REALLY want to experiment with TC-W3 in your new Opti?

[fastasfox]

Originally Posted by willk

He clearly feels it's worth the difference. Maybe only for piece of mind? It's entirely possible that you've cracked some global marketing conspiracy here, or then again, perhaps DI oils are blended a little differently to standard TC-W3, IIRC it's a fairly basic standard. I remember a French bloke on here who had a mate working for ELF who could blend up oils to any standard, he was planning to do a run of homer XD100 at the time. FYI I entirely agree with you, it's patently overpriced but what can you do except minimise the cost by shopping for a bargain. Do you REALLY want to experiment with TC-W3 in your new Opti?

I will give anything a go once Wilk lol
And sometimes it ends up with me saying 'well that didn't go well lol'

[beamishken]

I also hate paying the "marine premium" for anything that seems unfairly price hiked just because its marine. that includes oils etc if I can buy the correct grade without the marine tag cheaper I'll do that as long as the grade is correct.
I think in general theres a lot of misinformation regarding oils in general with a lot of folk claiming one brand is better than the next, usually the more expensive one, my feeling is if the specs right & it's cheap I'm happy to use it.
BUT & it's a big BUT where 2 stroke oils are concerned. While I'm happy to run a generic cheaper brand of tcw3 in an old school 2 stroke I'd be concerned about running it in a direct injection outboard.
The reason being I had a lengthy conversation with a guy who worked as an oil blender for an oil company who made various oils for varied uses. What he said was that the Tcw3 standard was brought out as a minimum standard for use in old school 2 stroke outboards to ensure that in 3rd world countries where oils & fuels are generaly poor quality that manufacturers had a minimum spec oil to insist upon. His information was that most good quality motorcycle oils would far exceed the tcw3 requirements (not your b&q lawnmower oil) the reason that such oil isnt marked as tcw3 is they need to pay whoever set the standard a licence fee for printing tcw3 on the bottle but as marine isnt the target market they dont bother. Evinrudes can be reprogrammed to run tcw3 but as a higher concentration mercury say use their dfi oil which is marked as tcw3 but my thoughts are it probably far exceeds the tcw3 minimum spec (remember tcw3 is relatively poor grade) so its suitable for standard 2 strokes but I doubt that is a clue that a standard cheap tcw3 oil is suitable for a direct injection engine.
Whilst it pains me to say it, in this instance I think I'd be inclined to use an oil which is marked as dfi suitable probably the rock oil, I think this may be one occasion where the marine "liquid gold" is probably a better standard.
On the bright side the optimax will probably use up to 50% less fuel & a lower ratio of oil with the fuel so you might find your oil costs overall are similar or less than your clamshell

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by beamishken

I also hate paying the "marine premium" for anything that seems unfairly price hiked just because its marine. that includes oils etc if I can buy the correct grade without the marine tag cheaper I'll do that as long as the grade is correct.
I think in general theres a lot of misinformation regarding oils in general with a lot of folk claiming one brand is better than the next, usually the more expensive one, my feeling is if the specs right & it's cheap I'm happy to use it.
BUT & it's a big BUT where 2 stroke oils are concerned. While I'm happy to run a generic cheaper brand of tcw3 in an old school 2 stroke I'd be concerned about running it in a direct injection outboard.
The reason being I had a lengthy conversation with a guy who worked as an oil blender for an oil company who made various oils for varied uses. What he said was that the Tcw3 standard was brought out as a minimum standard for use in old school 2 stroke outboards to ensure that in 3rd world countries where oils & fuels are generaly poor quality that manufacturers had a minimum spec oil to insist upon. His information was that most good quality motorcycle oils would far exceed the tcw3 requirements (not your b&q lawnmower oil) the reason that such oil isnt marked as tcw3 is they need to pay whoever set the standard a licence fee for printing tcw3 on the bottle but as marine isnt the target market they dont bother. Evinrudes can be reprogrammed to run tcw3 but as a higher concentration mercury say use their dfi oil which is marked as tcw3 but my thoughts are it probably far exceeds the tcw3 minimum spec (remember tcw3 is relatively poor grade) so its suitable for standard 2 strokes but I doubt that is a clue that a standard cheap tcw3 oil is suitable for a direct injection engine.
Whilst it pains me to say it, in this instance I think I'd be inclined to use an oil which is marked as dfi suitable probably the rock oil, I think this may be one occasion where the marine "liquid gold" is probably a better standard.
On the bright side the optimax will probably use up to 50% less fuel & a lower ratio of oil with the fuel so you might find your oil costs overall are similar or less than your clamshell

Agreed I used to run a pair of Etecs on Evinrude XD100 that was distilled from the tears of virgin unicorns. That said, the consumption was very frugal & the annual oil cost for the pair, was less than the annual servicing costs of my current single Suzuki DF140. So swings & roundabouts, for the amount of DFI oil they used & the actual cost difference, it wasn't worth the risk.

[fastasfox]

Originally Posted by beamishken

I also hate paying the "marine premium" for anything that seems unfairly price hiked just because its marine. that includes oils etc if I can buy the correct grade without the marine tag cheaper I'll do that as long as the grade is correct.
I think in general theres a lot of misinformation regarding oils in general with a lot of folk claiming one brand is better than the next, usually the more expensive one, my feeling is if the specs right & it's cheap I'm happy to use it.
BUT & it's a big BUT where 2 stroke oils are concerned. While I'm happy to run a generic cheaper brand of tcw3 in an old school 2 stroke I'd be concerned about running it in a direct injection outboard.
The reason being I had a lengthy conversation with a guy who worked as an oil blender for an oil company who made various oils for varied uses. What he said was that the Tcw3 standard was brought out as a minimum standard for use in old school 2 stroke outboards to ensure that in 3rd world countries where oils & fuels are generaly poor quality that manufacturers had a minimum spec oil to insist upon. His information was that most good quality motorcycle oils would far exceed the tcw3 requirements (not your b&q lawnmower oil) the reason that such oil isnt marked as tcw3 is they need to pay whoever set the standard a licence fee for printing tcw3 on the bottle but as marine isnt the target market they dont bother. Evinrudes can be reprogrammed to run tcw3 but as a higher concentration mercury say use their dfi oil which is marked as tcw3 but my thoughts are it probably far exceeds the tcw3 minimum spec (remember tcw3 is relatively poor grade) so its suitable for standard 2 strokes but I doubt that is a clue that a standard cheap tcw3 oil is suitable for a direct injection engine.
Whilst it pains me to say it, in this instance I think I'd be inclined to use an oil which is marked as dfi suitable probably the rock oil, I think this may be one occasion where the marine "liquid gold" is probably a better standard.
On the bright side the optimax will probably use up to 50% less fuel & a lower ratio of oil with the fuel so you might find your oil costs overall are similar or less than your clamshell

I have gone for Mercury's own Quicksilver dfi...I think it used to be called optimax two stroke.
like you I have to satisfy myself that I'm getting what I pay for and not just paying for the hype.