Diesel ribs price fall imminent? - Page 2

Mollers · 08 December 2006, 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

Considering Britain has the dearest diesel in the World it is going to seriously hurt British boaters and the whole industry.

I'm not one for Cod-bashing but this is a pants statement. There is not a gin palace on the water that will suddenly be decommisioned due to extra duty being slapped on diesel or a sale cancelled. Fuel cost is only a smallish percentage of the total running cost of a large boat, especially those that don't go anywhere. The marina, servicing, depreciation etc. etc add up to a lot more. A bit more on the price of gas isn't gonna deter these guys. The advantages of running smaller diesel boats will certainly deminish, but again it's not going to effect the 'industry'. Joe Bloggs whom was considering a diesel Rib will probably go for a petrol one now. Mr. Rib salesman still gets his sale. We have three large privately owned marinas in Falmouth, all three have a three year waiting list. Is the price of diesel gonna effect that? Don't think so. A massive hike in interest rates might. So, is it gonna be full DERV price or somewhere in between?

Oh yeah, and as of a couple of years ago Kerosene is dyed yellow, so just as big a wrist slap for using it as red. We are getting pulled and tested regularly in these parts, even fancy new 4x4's.

John Kennett · 08 December 2006, 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mollers

There is not a gin palace on the water that will suddenly be decommisioned due to extra duty being slapped on diesel or a sale cancelled.

Availability may become an issue though. It would be a bastard having to refuel a gin palace using jerry cans!

It depends whether they are doing away with red diesel for marine use altogether, or just stopping leisure boaters from using it.

If red diesel goes entirely (and commercial users have to claim the duty back) then it shouldn't be a problem as white diesel will be widely available. If commercial users are still able to use red, then I can't see many places wanting to install tanks and dispensing equipment for both colours.

I haven't seen any reference to how they plan to implement the changes. Anyone else know?

John

tim griffin · 08 December 2006, 19:47

Think Red deisel will stay. All the commercial operators will do is apply for the duty back , just the same as all the commercials who operate petrol boats do . All you will see is the price hike so no major excercise in changing pumps just abit more paper shuffling for those in the commercial sector

rickuk3 · 08 December 2006, 20:05

From the British Marine Industry Federation website
http://www.britishmarine.co.uk/defau...d=277&aid=4031

codprawn · 08 December 2006, 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mollers

I'm not one for Cod-bashing but this is a pants statement. There is not a gin palace on the water that will suddenly be decommisioned due to extra duty being slapped on diesel or a sale cancelled. Fuel cost is only a smallish percentage of the total running cost of a large boat, especially those that don't go anywhere. The marina, servicing, depreciation etc. etc add up to a lot more. A bit more on the price of gas isn't gonna deter these guys. .

I didn't say they would get rid of them. Already a lot of people keep their boats in France or Spain etc to save money - the price rise of diesel will force many more to do the same.

I wonder why all the people who campaigned against the tax tried so hard if it will have no effect? Bit like the speed limit on Windmere

I have quite a few friends who are very wealthy - none of them like parting with money if they don't have to - they already feel that they pay more than enough in tax.

Of course what will probably happen is there there will be a huge juimp in the number of boats that are chartered.

A typical Gin palace can use 150L an hour - 3x more fuel WILL make a big difference - an extra £1400 for a weekend's cruising.

Boats are a luxury item - cars are essential.

MarkWildey · 08 December 2006, 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

That is £0.72 per litre - it was £0.95 here at the time!!!

95p for a litre of diesel, what?

Have been paying 40's all year for RED

codprawn · 09 December 2006, 03:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkWildey

95p for a litre of diesel, what?

Have been paying 40's all year for RED

I am on about WHITE diesel in reply to it being the same price in France - which it isn't!!!

IBWET · 09 December 2006, 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mollers

I'm not one for Cod-bashing but this is a pants statement. There is not a gin palace on the water that will suddenly be decommisioned due to extra duty being slapped on diesel or a sale cancelled. Fuel cost is only a smallish percentage of the total running cost of a large boat, especially those that don't go anywhere. The marina, servicing, depreciation etc. etc add up to a lot more. A bit more on the price of gas isn't gonna deter these guys. The advantages of running smaller diesel boats will certainly deminish, but again it's not going to effect the 'industry'. Joe Bloggs whom was considering a diesel Rib will probably go for a petrol one now. Mr. Rib salesman still gets his sale. We have three large privately owned marinas in Falmouth, all three have a three year waiting list. Is the price of diesel gonna effect that? Don't think so. A massive hike in interest rates might. So, is it gonna be full DERV price or somewhere in between?

Oh yeah, and as of a couple of years ago Kerosene is dyed yellow, so just as big a wrist slap for using it as red. We are getting pulled and tested regularly in these parts, even fancy new 4x4's.

As far as Gin palaces go this change is a talking point in the bar bordering on irrelevance (most are floating caravans anyway) cod I'm not sure where to get your £1400! average weekend is around £300 ( 300hp engines )...presently as mollers said it's the berthing fees (example 40 footer = £5,000 per year) this cost only goes up however much you use the boat.

Anti - fouling about £1000.... £500 for services, per engine.. among all the others marina services cleaning/polishing, ,shore power,mech issues (they are less reliable than rib's by a long way)...the list go on and on, .

The cost of fuel, relatively speaking is not important.

Running a diesel rib, I could imagine this rise being catastrophic.... there are two big what looks llike 10mtr passenger ribs in the marina, both with 2x200 hp evinrudes still can't work out how the figure stack up over using petrol instread of diesel... can't see them changing now...

John Kennett · 09 December 2006, 08:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by tim griffin

Think Red deisel will stay. All the commercial operators will do is apply for the duty back , just the same as all the commercials who operate petrol boats do .

Surely that's a contradiction isn't it?

If red stays then there will be no need to claim the duty back.

John

Nos4r2 · 09 December 2006, 08:47

I wonder if people would count as being commercial users if they bought a shellfish fishing licence?

I don't think there's any requirements to actually catch anything if you've got one.

tim griffin · 09 December 2006, 08:49

Sorry for the misunderstanding

What I mean is I can't see fuel suppliers having to bring in two different pumps white and red leisure use and commercial use .
Keep existing pumps and the commercial users will have to claim the duty back as we do now on our petrol boats.
Hope that explains it abit better

John Kennett · 09 December 2006, 09:13

That would mean no red diesel, and all the pumps switching to white. That would definitely be the "less bad" situation, as there would still be good availability.

If, however, they keep red diesel for commercial users but don't allow it for leisure use it would be a much more difficult situation.

I haven't yet seen any firm indication of which way it would go. Have you found any more information?

John

Mollers · 09 December 2006, 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

I didn't say they would get rid of them. Already a lot of people keep their boats in France or Spain etc to save money - the price rise of diesel will force many more to do the same.

I wonder why all the people who campaigned against the tax tried so hard if it will have no effect? Bit like the speed limit on Windmere

I have quite a few friends who are very wealthy - none of them like parting with money if they don't have to - they already feel that they pay more than enough in tax.

Of course what will probably happen is there there will be a huge juimp in the number of boats that are chartered.

A typical Gin palace can use 150L an hour - 3x more fuel WILL make a big difference - an extra £1400 for a weekend's cruising.

Boats are a luxury item - cars are essential.

It will effect individuals without doubt, but the effect on the 'marine' industry, in my view will be minimal. Your wealthy mates might be so pee'd off as to sell their boats but,the guys that buy the boats will have factored into the cost of ownership the price of fuel therefore the industry goes on. The fuel supply guys might have to make some infastructure investments.

Mollers · 09 December 2006, 11:53

On the subject of 'mates'. A mate of mine bought a new Searay 21ft bowrider diesel inboard last year. My advice was not to, as this banning of red was always on the horizon. That particular type of boat is not good as a diesel. The lump is heavy and underpowered with a sluggish pull-out compared to a petrol equivalent. The only advantage it had (cheap fuel) is about to go, so I reckon he's now left with a pup.

Simon B · 09 December 2006, 13:01

The government will want an easy system where it gets its wedge, now, what we might see soon is a two tier road fund tax reclaim scheme starting. Top tier max reclaim for commercial business operators second tier for leisure users who dont take their boats on the road - sorry Gibbs aquada owners you're shafted on diesel or petrol!

IBWET · 09 December 2006, 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kennett

That would mean no red diesel, and all the pumps switching to white. That would definitely be the "less bad" situation, as there would still be good availability.

If, however, they keep red diesel for commercial users but don't allow it for leisure use it would be a much more difficult situation.

I haven't yet seen any firm indication of which way it would go. Have you found any more information?

John

Unless the gov subsidies the installation I think you can forget the two tank senario. thats without the extra space a lot of marinas need. something weighing 10 ten tonnes just can't be taken down the esso station..the only way is for one pump. com reclaiming.

IBWET · 09 December 2006, 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mollers

On the subject of 'mates'. A mate of mine bought a new Searay 21ft bowrider diesel inboard last year. My advice was not to, as this banning of red was always on the horizon. That particular type of boat is not good as a diesel. The lump is heavy and underpowered with a sluggish pull-out compared to a petrol equivalent. The only advantage it had (cheap fuel) is about to go, so I reckon he's now left with a pup.

I can see the whole debate about bio-diesel coming up again. Not for GP's as it's not realistic for big boats logistically,but if your mate knows the rocal chinareeze resason, he could see if he could put something together with them. (apparently you can knock up a machine to do the mixing out of an old pallet and some staples) The smell is great, just like getting the munchee's after a few sherberts.

Mollers · 09 December 2006, 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBWET

I can see the whole debate about bio-diesel coming up again. Not for GP's as it's not realistic for big boats logistically,but if your mate knows the rocal chinareeze resason, he could see if he could put something together with them. (apparently you can knock up a machine to do the mixing out of an old pallet and some staples) The smell is great, just like getting the munchee's after a few sherberts.

Take all that chip oil stuff with a pinch of salt and a dash of vinegar. I tried to run a BMW 2.5TDI on Kerosene once, it was hopeless. Had to wind it over for ages to get it to start and it was pretty flat once running. Why do oil companies spend millions developing diesels when chip oil will do? A 2cyl Petter might be OK with non-diesel oils but, I wouldn't be putting it in a new hitech thing where a replacement pump is £2k.

ian parkes · 10 December 2006, 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mollers

Take all that chip oil stuff with a pinch of salt and a dash of vinegar. I tried to run a BMW 2.5TDI on Kerosene once, it was hopeless. Had to wind it over for ages to get it to start and it was pretty flat once running. Why do oil companies spend millions developing diesels when chip oil will do? A 2cyl Petter might be OK with non-diesel oils but, I wouldn't be putting it in a new hitech thing where a replacement pump is £2k.

You are right there , my mate tried to run his wifes car and his van on chip oil , it ran reasonably well , but cost him a new diesel pump on both vehicles within 6 months . Maybe it works with a proper conversion but then there is the fitting cost , like LPG ,
I think the problem is mineral and vegetable oils don't mix properly and form deposits in the pump and engine that destroy it . Was always the case with 2 stroke bikes , you couldn't change from castrol R back to mineral oil without flushing out all the old stuff .